If there is a God...why is there...

[sentinent]

As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

I'm not insulting you. I was ignorant about the origin of Yahweh and animism until I learned more!
Learning is the best antidote to fundamentalism. As I pointed out atheists believe in woo ( men can be women) too.

Don't let your past influence understanding that the world is vastly more complex than we imagined. That a spiritual world can exist without a punitive single deity.

No doubt you’re familiar with this channel, but thought it might be worth linking This for people wanting to find out a bit more about various religions. Religion for Breakfast is a channel largely put together by religious scholars giving bite sized analyses of various religions and religious concepts

I'm not joking, I think everyone needs to get some psilocybin mushrooms down their neck and rethink all this.

@Alcemeg that sounds like a great idea

Meh, Magic mushrooms are a cop out. Most European/Scandinavian traditions used more natural means, namely breathwork and hyper focus/meditation Much more beneficial if you can do it.

Hmm, I'm not familiar with that channel, I read scholarly texts. But it's great to share.

I'd be scared to mess with hallucinogens but I did Buddhist ascetic meditation training, lots of suffering to get the mini enlightenment experience. Honestly it wasn't anything I didn't already know.

Have you tried breathwork? Guided hypnosis? Hallucinogenics aren’t for me but I’ve had some great success with breathing esp.

Most European/Scandinavian traditions used more natural means, namely breathwork and hyper focus/meditation
I'm sure that's what they told you down at the meditation centre, but it's disingenuous of them to write psilocybe semilanceata and amanita muscaria out of the shamanic traditions of the Northern hemisphere.

I'd be scared to mess with hallucinogens but I did Buddhist ascetic meditation training, lots of suffering to get the mini enlightenment experience. Honestly it wasn't anything I didn't already know.
We can't learn anything truly new while our ego is still in control of the whole experience.

I used to think the whole idea of "magic" mushrooms ridiculous, until I tried them in my mid-40s. I used to struggle with questions about good and evil and God and not-God and all the rest of it. Now, I just understand this:

I’m not sure what meditation centre you’re talking about, I’ve never been to a meditation centre in my live.

What have done is undertake a lot of research.

What “Shamanic” tribes are we talking about? Let’s use Hultkrantz’s definition of a Shaman (although obviously it’s a disputed term) “a social functionary who with the help of guardian spirits attains ecstasy in order to create a rapport with the supernatural word on behalf of his group members”

”Shamanism” is obviously largely a modern concept grouping together of people who perform similar activities (like many such grouping the contemporary view would have seen them as distinct).

it’s an interesting topic but how they achieved “ecstasy” would be the pertinent point here.

For the vast majority of situations, the oral traditions make it possible to know (traditions with unbroken lineage are few and far between and certainly really unheard of in Europe where we’re are discussing)

Mccoy in “The Viking Spirit” states that “there’s no evidence for a widespread use of entheogen” although concedes there was probably some isolated usage.

instead he lists music, breathing dance and ritual. This seems most likely given practices which are recoded increasingly often in esoteric experiences in Europe from the Middle Ages onwards. Indeed my own practice (and those of others) would back up the effectiveness of these things. Of course “Odin magical meed” could be anything - alcohol is likely to be insufficient but it doesn’t necessarily mean the use of hallucinogenics.

Of course it’s impossible to totally exclude the possibility of the use of Mushrooms of pre written record tribes but it certainly is not something scholars have found much continuing evidence of in Europe from all the sources I read.

However, repeatedly states of ecstasy in the west are recorded as being through breathwork, music, chants, ritual and mediation. these are the practices still used today.

I am not trying to say some people don’t find these experiences useful, I know many who regularly partake in mushroom and ayahuasca ceremonies who have experiences similar to those I’ve achieved otherwise (although with less committing and shitting myself).

No doubt Huxley was right about the necessity or not of such things.

vomiting not committing

Ooh yes definitely, each to their own! I just can't not mention it on a thread like this 🌞

I think there’s definitely some mileage in looking at their use esp in mental health. I know DMT has shown some promise with PTSD esp. it also helps people see outside the physical and remove barriers. But I think, and I know many experienced in running ceremonies involving hallucinogenics concur, once the doors of perception have been cleansed it’s important to try and learn to replicate the effects within oneself. I think of it like having stabilisers on a bike.

I think we need to be very careful in using the effects of hallucinogenics to mask the potential of humans within ourselves to create similar effects. Since the enlightenment there’s been an increasing tendency to try and explain past practices using things like hallucinogenics to fit in with a changing word view.

Since society lost much of its connection with magic (and I use the term here to allude to a change within yourself in accordance with will which usually also has external effects) society has often looked for physical usually external explanations as there is a lack of understanding about how such societies were intertwined with magic (somewhere along the lines of the above definition) for millennia by skilled practitioners.

@OMG12 I agree, except that personally I certainly can't get anywhere near replicating such an experience "naturally" (as you call it).

Also, the acid test (ha!) is: I got my answers, which means I can't even remember the last time I used a psychedelic plant/drug. Once you've unlocked the door, there is no need to keep hammering it down!

It doesn't work for everyone, of course. I've known people experiment endlessly without ever finding their truth. But I stick by it as a valid approach 😊

Sure I have; they are common approaches In esoteric Buddhist traditions; I've practiced complex visualization, concentrated on mandalas, and aligned my breathing. Again I achieved an out of body mystical experience that showed me I was one with the universe .
Fine, but I believed that before all the effort and pain .... 😆

Did you find any difference between the knowing and experiencing? That’s always been the difference for me when I’ve experienced an altered state of consciousness- everything is much more powerful and intense, more real somehow. I don’t really know about Eastern practices as I’ve never been drawn there so not sure if they’re the sane as western practices.

Oh that's absolutely the case; it was a powerful intense long-lasting unforgettable experience.
I've had previous brief moments of what William James called ' cosmic consciousness ' where the barrier of the self melts away, so that's why I say it was no surprise.
The practices are different from Western ones, they come from India and then we're altered by transit through Daoist, Shinto cultores.

Yes that’s my experience too, I once had a very intense experience of being absorbed into the All. Although it’s something I could conceive of intellectually experiencing it was something else.

Was it Evelyn Underhill who wrote that all real mystical experience is the same across religions...
Mysticism is the cure for fundamentalism.

i certainly agree with that. In fact I think mysticism is a cure for religions. As such it’s its biggest threat.

Strip away the story wrappers of each religion you’re left with largely the same principles. But people cling to the story. The vehicle through which the message is delivered. Its the story element which causes wars, death and misery, often in the face of its underlying principles.

if people spent more time searching within themselves For the truth, rather than arguing the details of stories, the world would be a better place as they realise they really are all agreeing after all

"Strip away the story wrappers of each religion you’re left with largely the same principles. But people cling to the story. The vehicle through which the message is delivered. Its the story element which causes wars, death and misery, often in the face of its underlying principles.

if people spent more time searching within themselves For the truth, rather than arguing the details of stories, the world would be a better place as they realise they really are all agreeing after all"

I think narrative is good in that it gives context to spiritual truth. Actually shows spirit working, manifesting, throughout the material world and what this looks like. As (partly) physical beings it can make spiritual truth easier to grasp and understand.

In terms of mystical experiences, I see them completely intertwined with everyday life. I don't think I have the separation in my head between one thing being a purely material experience and one thing being a purely mystical one. But then I come from a background where I am well versed in narrative. I did English literature and linguistics at university. The imagery and metaphors within life certainly strike me from time to time.

Within Christianity I certainly don't think engaging with the text of the Bible, church history, partaking of the sacraments and prayer is devoid of mystery and enlightening experiences. It is jam packed full! It does not take hallucinogenic mushrooms or special breathing techniques or transcendental meditation to be able to connect to the divine God.

Mmmm. Sorry maybe I wasn’t clear. I didn’t say the story wrappers should be ditched, I’m just saying if you strip them away you find the same or similar messages. Humans are storytellers, stories are how we make sense of the world, they are vessels to carry symbols. In oral traditions they things easier to remember. The characters make things easier to relate to. But people get tied up in “our story is better than yours” and wars break out people get burned at the stake.

it probably depends on definition of mystical experience, but it’s usually taken as having a sense of oneness otherwise than through intelligent thought processes in an altered state of consciousness.

What we were talking about were two methods of achieving altered states of consciousness. There are many ways of doing this as alluded to in the context of what we know call the vikings. Church services, esp catholic masses and high church Anglianism are littered with them. Ritual, chanting, singing, repetition, suggestion, incense, etc. other ways familiar to region inc fasting, group psychology etc.

"Mmmm. Sorry maybe I wasn’t clear. I didn’t say the story wrappers should be ditched, I’m just saying if you strip them away you find the same or similar messages. Humans are storytellers, stories are how we make sense of the world, they are vessels to carry symbols. In oral traditions they things easier to remember. The characters make things easier to relate to. But people get tied up in “our story is better than yours” and wars break out people get burned at the stake."

Ah, thanks for clarifying @OMG12. That makes more sense to me.

"it probably depends on definition of mystical experience, but it’s usually taken as having a sense of oneness otherwise than through intelligent thought processes in an altered state of consciousness"

But this can happen quite naturally everyday during sleep states. Or when we are lost in day dreams. I think what I am trying to say is it doesn't have to be dressed up as a big event. It can be so intrinsic and intuitive it doesn't necessarily have to be taught or learnt or intentioned. 🙂

Group psychological suggestion

Yes these things can and do happen everyday, we dream.

But I guess putting yourself in an altered state of consciousness purposely rather than accidentally carrys more or different benefits, usually around interaction and intention.

it’s dreaming in a natural state v lucid dreaming.

although mysticism is often seen as receptive it shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as passive.