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Original poster

If there is a God...why is there...

487 replies

sentinent · 03/08/2023 00:14

As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

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MolkosTeenageAngst · 09/08/2023 14:12

JaukiVexnoydi · 03/08/2023 01:00

Why are you holding God responsible for these things?

God created life. For there to be life there must be death, because death and life are intrinsically part of the same process. A system with no death is changeless, no birth, no renewal, no creativity.

Yet the existence of death doesn't require the existence of suffering. Given all the resources available on this planet, there could be no hunger and no war and no poverty if humans could just be unselfish and just only use their fair share of everything. Is God to blame that we choose not to do that?

And if all the human inginuity and creativity and investment that has gone into warfare had instead been directed at medical science had instead gone in to medical research, how many diseases would by now be eliminated? Why would that failure be God's fault?

God chose to create a universe where death exists because life cannot exist without death, and where suffering exists because God is Love and for Love to be valid, the Beloved must be truly free to say no, and to walk away, therefore free will must be possible, therefore suffering must be possible. But to cast us into that situation without caring wouldn't be loving so God placed Gods self right in the middle of that suffering and experienced it first-hand through incarnation as a human and dying in agony in order to not only share in the suffering that is intrinsic to the human condition, but also to transfigure it, and turn it into a bridge between humanity and divinity.

I can only partially understand this. I can understand the need for death in order to have life. I can understand the reason for suffering that is inflicted on humans by other humans, for example war, slavery, inequality etc.

But what was the need for horrific diseases for which we have no cure or where the cure is not 100% effective? Why would God create diseases such cancer, malaria, Ebola, parasitic diseases, rabies etc? Why would God create awful genetic conditions such as metabolic disorders like hunter syndrome or sanfilippo syndrome, muscular distrophy, SMA, Batten’s disease where after developing normally babies or children suddenly decline, losing all of their skills and suffer and die in childhood or early adulthood? Why does death have to include such awful disease which cause children to suffer and for which we have no cure or treatment? If there was a god why would they allow this kind of suffering, which is not caused by other humans, to exist? Death from disease is possible without such awful suffering, so why would god invent such cruel diseases and give them out randomly to innocent babies and children to die from in awful pain?

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 14:24

meanderingbrook · 09/08/2023 13:20

"People with serious brain injuries lose their personalities, their mind, their memories and their emotions, depending upon which part of their brain is damaged. Nothing to do with an imagined "soul.""

@Mischance

Unless the soul lives independent from the body and the body simply acts like a 'receiver' to the soul which it then projects. If the receiver/projector is broken the soul cannot project properly from the body. (I think this is similar to what Rupert Sheldrake suggests, if I remember correctly.)

An excellent analogy and one I was about to express. At conception the body and soul are created as one. In a brain injured person the vessel for the soul is broken therefore the two cannot function in harmony. The soul, in a spiritual sense, not in a physical sense, does not become obsolete because the body is broken. It leaves the body to return to the spiritual source only when we die.

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 14:38

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 13:56

Yes absolutely lots of ideas out there, so do you think the soul is created at conception or arrives already in existence and merges with the physical at conception?

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My thoughts are by procreation our souls are passed on through the generations and leave the body to return to the spiritual source only when we die. This means we are all spiritual beings from the moment of conception to be nurtured in the body, or not depending on nature & circumstances, until birth & so the cycle begins again

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 15:01

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 14:38

My thoughts are by procreation our souls are passed on through the generations and leave the body to return to the spiritual source only when we die. This means we are all spiritual beings from the moment of conception to be nurtured in the body, or not depending on nature & circumstances, until birth & so the cycle begins again

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Do you believe in reincarnation of the soul?

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 15:19

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 15:01

Do you believe in reincarnation of the soul?

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I have every respect for people who believe in reincarnation although it's just not for me. My posts about the origin of the soul, what it is & what happens to the soul when we die describe my beliefs which do not concur with the concept of reincarnation.

Mischance · 09/08/2023 15:48

An excellent analogy and one I was about to express. At conception the body and soul are created as one. In a brain injured person the vessel for the soul is broken therefore the two cannot function in harmony.

What the heck! Talk about turning oneself inside out to justify the existence of a "soul" !! Where did you get this idea from? What is the point of it?

I think Okhams' Razor is what you need here: Suppose an event has two possible explanations. The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 16:19

Mischance · 09/08/2023 15:48

An excellent analogy and one I was about to express. At conception the body and soul are created as one. In a brain injured person the vessel for the soul is broken therefore the two cannot function in harmony.

What the heck! Talk about turning oneself inside out to justify the existence of a "soul" !! Where did you get this idea from? What is the point of it?

I think Okhams' Razor is what you need here: Suppose an event has two possible explanations. The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

Well you could say “what the heck” about your assumptions. You have a perspective on the world and are happy to find an explanation that fits it. That’s fine. The mistake you’re making though is not to consider all alternative explanations. All of these explanations are equally possible, you have done nothing to conclusively disprove any of them. There is nothing to suggest that your explanation is true above all the other possible explanations. Talk about being closed minded in order to back up your world view. It’s absolutely no different to an individual seeking out only explanations which back up their belief in a God. All you have is correlation

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 16:31

Mischance · 09/08/2023 15:48

An excellent analogy and one I was about to express. At conception the body and soul are created as one. In a brain injured person the vessel for the soul is broken therefore the two cannot function in harmony.

What the heck! Talk about turning oneself inside out to justify the existence of a "soul" !! Where did you get this idea from? What is the point of it?

I think Okhams' Razor is what you need here: Suppose an event has two possible explanations. The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

In answer to your question 'Rupert Sheldrake' science & soul. I have obviously tried my best to simplify his academic reasons behind his beliefs about the soul and what you described regarding the injured brain. The fact remains people are either spiritual or not. When we open our minds and hearts to something omnipotent & greater than ourselves we begin to understand where people get their faith.

ZebraDanios · 09/08/2023 17:04

@OMG12 I think it’s totally possible to see Heaven in a wild flower. Do you know this one by Tennyson?

Flower in the crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the crannies,
I hold you here, root and all, in my hand,
Little flower—but if I could understand
What you are, root and all, all in all,
I should know what God and man is.

Mischance · 09/08/2023 17:27

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 16:19

Well you could say “what the heck” about your assumptions. You have a perspective on the world and are happy to find an explanation that fits it. That’s fine. The mistake you’re making though is not to consider all alternative explanations. All of these explanations are equally possible, you have done nothing to conclusively disprove any of them. There is nothing to suggest that your explanation is true above all the other possible explanations. Talk about being closed minded in order to back up your world view. It’s absolutely no different to an individual seeking out only explanations which back up their belief in a God. All you have is correlation

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My approach is far more fundamental than your description and assumptions of my beliefs above. I do not seek explanations. I accept the world around me as it evidently is. I do not postulate souls or gods. I look at what is.

That does not leave me with a barren life. I marvel at what I see, take delight in the good things and am sad at the bad.

My "world view" is that our role on earth (just one of many millions of blobs of matter circulating in space) is to be as kind to each other as we can; to leave the world a better place in our own small ways when we go.

For these reasons, I reject the man made religions that seek explanations that we cannot ever know and, in the process, control and subdue minds and bodies, cause wars and foster guilt.

I do not know what the answer is to the presence of evil in the world - but neither does anyone else. Many people seek to find explanations, but (as one might predict) none are the same (hence the presence of many religions) and therefore none are definitive.

There is no answer to the presence of evil - it simply is. But, in a world that is predicated on kill or be killed and survival of the fittest, it does not come as a surprise. Cancerous cells or viruses or bacteria are simply pursuing their raison d'etre - to survive regardless of who/what dies in the process.

We do not have the capacity to understand everything - why the world exists, what the heck it is for - and lives in their trillions have been wasted in that pursuit.

Just take the world as it is, accept its flaws and live as kind a life as you are able. There simply are no explanations for any of it that we can find without postulating/making up unknowables, like a soul.

Catinawhirl · 09/08/2023 17:41

This

ZebraDanios · 09/08/2023 17:47

@Mischance There is no answer to the presence of evil - it simply is. But, in a world that is predicated on kill or be killed and survival of the fittest, it does not come as a surprise. Cancerous cells or viruses or bacteria are simply pursuing their raison d'etre - to survive regardless of who/what dies in the process.

This is how I feel about this too. Someone asked way upthread about how atheists reconcile themselves to all the evil in the world, and I would have thought it was much easier for an atheist - to me, evil happening because of a morally neutral force whose only concern is its own survival (ie nature) is understandable, but a divine creator who either deliberately put the evil there or has the power to prevent it but doesn’t is a horrifying thought. As a PP said upthread, of course there has to be death, but what reason does a benevolent creator have for allowing violent deaths and agonising disease to happen to the innocent?

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 18:03

Mischance · 09/08/2023 17:27

My approach is far more fundamental than your description and assumptions of my beliefs above. I do not seek explanations. I accept the world around me as it evidently is. I do not postulate souls or gods. I look at what is.

That does not leave me with a barren life. I marvel at what I see, take delight in the good things and am sad at the bad.

My "world view" is that our role on earth (just one of many millions of blobs of matter circulating in space) is to be as kind to each other as we can; to leave the world a better place in our own small ways when we go.

For these reasons, I reject the man made religions that seek explanations that we cannot ever know and, in the process, control and subdue minds and bodies, cause wars and foster guilt.

I do not know what the answer is to the presence of evil in the world - but neither does anyone else. Many people seek to find explanations, but (as one might predict) none are the same (hence the presence of many religions) and therefore none are definitive.

There is no answer to the presence of evil - it simply is. But, in a world that is predicated on kill or be killed and survival of the fittest, it does not come as a surprise. Cancerous cells or viruses or bacteria are simply pursuing their raison d'etre - to survive regardless of who/what dies in the process.

We do not have the capacity to understand everything - why the world exists, what the heck it is for - and lives in their trillions have been wasted in that pursuit.

Just take the world as it is, accept its flaws and live as kind a life as you are able. There simply are no explanations for any of it that we can find without postulating/making up unknowables, like a soul.

Show quote history

But you do not “accept the world as it evidently is”. Well you do, but it is as it evidently is to you.

I see the world as it evidently is to me, we all look at the world through a framework. Your framework is that everything is physical. My framework is that “reality” is made up of the physical and spiritual. That is how it “evidently is” to me. I could no more deny the presence of a spiritual layer than you could deny the existence of gravity.

I don’t have a religion, it’s interesting though how your happy to tell me how to live my life and tell me what to believe to try and get me to se the world as you do. If you don’t see the world as I do, fair enough. I’m not ever going to tell people what they should think or believe. But maybe consider how your approach is similar to that of the religious zealots.

Mischance · 09/08/2023 18:27

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 18:03

But you do not “accept the world as it evidently is”. Well you do, but it is as it evidently is to you.

I see the world as it evidently is to me, we all look at the world through a framework. Your framework is that everything is physical. My framework is that “reality” is made up of the physical and spiritual. That is how it “evidently is” to me. I could no more deny the presence of a spiritual layer than you could deny the existence of gravity.

I don’t have a religion, it’s interesting though how your happy to tell me how to live my life and tell me what to believe to try and get me to se the world as you do. If you don’t see the world as I do, fair enough. I’m not ever going to tell people what they should think or believe. But maybe consider how your approach is similar to that of the religious zealots.

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I am not telling you what to believe or how to live. I have no interest in getting you to see the world as I do. What difference does it make to me or anyone else? You may see it as you wish - as long as you are not harming anyone, then that is fine.

Your world is made up of more than you can see - the physical and something intangible called the spiritual. I have no idea what that is and in general it seems to be indefinable. But your belief in that does me no harm. As I say, you may see the world as you wish.

The problem of course is that millennia of people who have a perception of or belief in the spiritual have seen fit to impose those beliefs on others, by force or by guilt, by childhood indoctrination or by limiting life possibilities for non-believers. And it has been a focus of oppression, particularly for women.

I see no reason to believe that you might endorse these evils perpetrated by those of a spiritual frame of mind, but none of us can ignore it.

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 18:54

Mischance · 09/08/2023 18:27

I am not telling you what to believe or how to live. I have no interest in getting you to see the world as I do. What difference does it make to me or anyone else? You may see it as you wish - as long as you are not harming anyone, then that is fine.

Your world is made up of more than you can see - the physical and something intangible called the spiritual. I have no idea what that is and in general it seems to be indefinable. But your belief in that does me no harm. As I say, you may see the world as you wish.

The problem of course is that millennia of people who have a perception of or belief in the spiritual have seen fit to impose those beliefs on others, by force or by guilt, by childhood indoctrination or by limiting life possibilities for non-believers. And it has been a focus of oppression, particularly for women.

I see no reason to believe that you might endorse these evils perpetrated by those of a spiritual frame of mind, but none of us can ignore it.

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I think that both science/technology and religion have been used to subjugate women. Because men have chosen to use both to gain power.

it’s interesting that particularly in the late 19th/early 20th century many women found freedom in what could generally be called occultism and many of these same women became very involved in the sufferage movement

meanderingbrook · 09/08/2023 19:06

"I see no reason to believe that you might endorse these evils perpetrated by those of a spiritual frame of mind, but none of us can ignore it."

@Mischance, the thing is spiritual influence is not confined to those declaring themselves to be of 'spiritual frame of mind' from my perspective. For example, I would describe the love of money as a certain kind of spiritual influence (one which is commented on within the Bible). Policies which prioritise economic considerations over everything else quite obviously affect the modern world, as do prejudices against people who happen to be living in poverty. I think the trouble is people can have an almost cartoon view over what spiritual is. They think of ghosts from fairy stories. In reality it can be cultural views which quickly take on power bigger than the individuals who hold them or what we have evidence for - just think of the fear of being 'cancelled' in modern culture.

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 19:17

Mischance · 09/08/2023 18:27

I am not telling you what to believe or how to live. I have no interest in getting you to see the world as I do. What difference does it make to me or anyone else? You may see it as you wish - as long as you are not harming anyone, then that is fine.

Your world is made up of more than you can see - the physical and something intangible called the spiritual. I have no idea what that is and in general it seems to be indefinable. But your belief in that does me no harm. As I say, you may see the world as you wish.

The problem of course is that millennia of people who have a perception of or belief in the spiritual have seen fit to impose those beliefs on others, by force or by guilt, by childhood indoctrination or by limiting life possibilities for non-believers. And it has been a focus of oppression, particularly for women.

I see no reason to believe that you might endorse these evils perpetrated by those of a spiritual frame of mind, but none of us can ignore it.

Show quote history

In this world from here to eternity there will be wars, famine, drought, disease & all else that contributes to human suffering. Power seeking to create dominace over others has got nothing to do with the spiritual world where there are no human bodies with all their imperfections and wrong doings. Everyone is accountable for their wrong doings & actions in this world. There is no need for war, there is no need for famine & nature is responsible for the the elements. The body is a vessel for the soul susceptible to disease like any other organism on earth. Think of God as more like an energy pulling you towards it in the hope we will trust in this to guide us through life to be the best we can be, helping those less fortunate & simply being kind to each other in words & deeds. A form of love to which the soul returns & which surpasses all understanding in this world.

JaukiVexnoydi · 10/08/2023 11:36

@MolkosTeenageAngst you're arguing against something I haven't asserted. Under the "intelligent design" theory of creation then God would indeed have deliberately created all those things and designed them to be just so. Which is one of many reasons why intelligent design isn't part of my beliefs. Arguing against the existence of God by pointing out the obvious flaws in the idea of intelligent design is a straw man.

I believe God created life and life includes all these things because life is a constant struggle to survive between a myriad of beings whose survival and thriving are mutually incompatible with one another and from that struggle,, amazing and wonderful things come forth which would never have existed without that struggle. The virus and the bacterium are struggling for life too. The antelope and the cheetah are both struggling for life and when the antelopes survive and outrun the cheetah, the cheetah cubs go hungry.

Life doesn't just happen automatically. The probabilities against it are enormous. Before you even get to whether or not a planet can evolve life, there's a question of how the physical constants of the universe are set such that even molecules are possible - the Big Bang could have caused a universe where those constants were very slightly different such that there was no possibility of molecules forming, just an infinite expanse of dust. If you can get thecuniverse going in such a way that stars and planets form, that doesn't necessarily give rise to life. The properties of that very simple molecule of water, which is vital to life as we understand it, would be very different if those physical constants were just a fraction different, and yet water exists. Even so, among billions of solar systems the probability of there being a rocky planet just far enough from a stable sun that water can exist in liquid form and an atmosphere with a sufficient magnetic field to ward off solar storms and make life even possible is such and incredibly unlikely thing that it's frankly a miracle - and one that took several billion years to achieve

Maybe it's a shame that the God who creates with a single word a perfect heavenly world in which there is no struggle and no suffering doesn't exist, but I don't think it's very valuable to argue against the existence of something whose existence isn't being asserted.

Yes God knew that creating life in this way, by means of physics and evolution, would intrinsically lead to suffering. That's the tradeoff, the grief and the pain and the joy and exultation are one package. It is therefore intrinsic that God must incarnate as part of the creation and experience that suffering first hand because to choose that tradeoff but to allow the suffering only to be borne by others and not oneself would be abhorent.

There is of course way more suffering in the world than what is required as intrinsic fallout from the nature of life because of choices made by us - moral beings who could choose better. The suffering caused by parasitic wasps etc isn't 'sinful' - it is creatures acting in accordance with their evolved nature with no understanding of the bigger picture. Humans are only capable of sin because they have the capability of understanding the consequences of their actions and the suffering they are choosing to cause, and they do it anyway.

MolkosTeenageAngst · 10/08/2023 12:21

JaukiVexnoydi · 10/08/2023 11:36

@MolkosTeenageAngst you're arguing against something I haven't asserted. Under the "intelligent design" theory of creation then God would indeed have deliberately created all those things and designed them to be just so. Which is one of many reasons why intelligent design isn't part of my beliefs. Arguing against the existence of God by pointing out the obvious flaws in the idea of intelligent design is a straw man.

I believe God created life and life includes all these things because life is a constant struggle to survive between a myriad of beings whose survival and thriving are mutually incompatible with one another and from that struggle,, amazing and wonderful things come forth which would never have existed without that struggle. The virus and the bacterium are struggling for life too. The antelope and the cheetah are both struggling for life and when the antelopes survive and outrun the cheetah, the cheetah cubs go hungry.

Life doesn't just happen automatically. The probabilities against it are enormous. Before you even get to whether or not a planet can evolve life, there's a question of how the physical constants of the universe are set such that even molecules are possible - the Big Bang could have caused a universe where those constants were very slightly different such that there was no possibility of molecules forming, just an infinite expanse of dust. If you can get thecuniverse going in such a way that stars and planets form, that doesn't necessarily give rise to life. The properties of that very simple molecule of water, which is vital to life as we understand it, would be very different if those physical constants were just a fraction different, and yet water exists. Even so, among billions of solar systems the probability of there being a rocky planet just far enough from a stable sun that water can exist in liquid form and an atmosphere with a sufficient magnetic field to ward off solar storms and make life even possible is such and incredibly unlikely thing that it's frankly a miracle - and one that took several billion years to achieve

Maybe it's a shame that the God who creates with a single word a perfect heavenly world in which there is no struggle and no suffering doesn't exist, but I don't think it's very valuable to argue against the existence of something whose existence isn't being asserted.

Yes God knew that creating life in this way, by means of physics and evolution, would intrinsically lead to suffering. That's the tradeoff, the grief and the pain and the joy and exultation are one package. It is therefore intrinsic that God must incarnate as part of the creation and experience that suffering first hand because to choose that tradeoff but to allow the suffering only to be borne by others and not oneself would be abhorent.

There is of course way more suffering in the world than what is required as intrinsic fallout from the nature of life because of choices made by us - moral beings who could choose better. The suffering caused by parasitic wasps etc isn't 'sinful' - it is creatures acting in accordance with their evolved nature with no understanding of the bigger picture. Humans are only capable of sin because they have the capability of understanding the consequences of their actions and the suffering they are choosing to cause, and they do it anyway.

I understand, it sounds like you don’t believe in a god who is omnipotent and omnipresent etc or has any ability to actually change what is happening to people or answer prayers etc? Am I right I’m thinking you are saying God created life like a scientist might culture bacteria in a Petri dish but then doesn’t have any real control of what it does beyond that?

I can understand how god could exist and why disease would exist in that model, if god created life but has no power in it afterwards and much of what happened next was random rather than in design it makes sense that disease can exist.a

The god I don’t understand people believing in is an omnipotent one who they pray to, who they believe can answer prayers and who did design humans intelligently (eg: the god described in the Bible) and is supposed to be powerful and determining everything. If that god exists they would it have created diseases and childhood suffering etc, why wouldn’t it answer everybody’s prayers if it could answer any at all. It sounds like that’s not the god you’re describing/ believe in so sorry if I misinterpreted that.

JaukiVexnoydi · 10/08/2023 14:44

@MolkosTeenageAngst it sounds like you and I are reasonably close in agreement. I don't think any religion has it "right" although there's a lot in Christianity that makes sense to me (i.e. if God is good and loving then incarnating as human would follow logically as intrinsically required as part of being a creator of a world like this). I don't think prayers get miraculously answered in general. I'm open to the possibility that miraculous healings could be possible on an exceptionally rare basis (eg the miracles of Jesus perhaps, if the accounts that survive are based on fact although we know the gospels were written many years later) but I couldn't believe that here and now God is choosing which cancer patients die and which recover. The best way to pray for a cure to cancer is to pray for courage and resilience for the medical students and researchers on the front line of that fight, and combining that with lobbying your mp for more funding/donating to cancer research charities. The prayer changes people's minds, not God's.

meanderingbrook · 10/08/2023 15:15

@JaukiVexnoydi well, speaking as someone who has had pretty serious cancer, I can say the hope offered by my Christian faith for healing has been very important to me and I believe instrumental in terms of my recovery. I find it very sad when people purposely attempt to destroy people's hope for the sake of what they can and can't get their own heads around. I say let people hope. When you are in that position yourself it is often what there is left to hold onto.

As to why I got it? Who knows - it could be inherited, it could be something I have inadvertently been exposed to. It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that I'm still here and as someone who has been in my position I can say hope is very important.

Silverseas1 · 10/08/2023 15:34

meanderingbrook · 10/08/2023 15:15

@JaukiVexnoydi well, speaking as someone who has had pretty serious cancer, I can say the hope offered by my Christian faith for healing has been very important to me and I believe instrumental in terms of my recovery. I find it very sad when people purposely attempt to destroy people's hope for the sake of what they can and can't get their own heads around. I say let people hope. When you are in that position yourself it is often what there is left to hold onto.

As to why I got it? Who knows - it could be inherited, it could be something I have inadvertently been exposed to. It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that I'm still here and as someone who has been in my position I can say hope is very important.

What a lovely mumsnet name 😊

Faith & hope combined, a wonderful combination to get us through life's tribulations. A few years ago I suffered sepsis as the result of a uti I tried to treat without antibiotics as the symptoms were mild. Little did I know when I was symptom free the infection was still lingering. Long story short, when my legs turned blue my DH didn't wait for an ambulance. He piled me into the car, rushed me to hospital & I was on IV fluids & antibiotics within 45 mins. It saved my life. After 3 days I was sent home & apart from a few weeks fatigue I was back to normal. We never know whats in store for us and with faith & hope we can get through anything this life throws at us & appreciate even more the beautiful moments 😊

meanderingbrook · 10/08/2023 15:40

Thank you @Silverseas1, and thank you for your relaying your positive experience regarding faith and hope. Sometimes people can make you feel pretty stupid or even worse irresponsible for daring to have either - which can make difficult experiences all the more lonely.

meanderingbrook · 10/08/2023 15:42

@Silverseas1 and your DH sounds like a pretty fab person to have by your side in a crisis.🙂