Page 13 | If there is a God...why is there...

sentinent · 2023-08-02T23:14:18+00:00

As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

Hawkins009 · 08/08/2023 22:13

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 20:59

Damn that’s Buddhism out then.

I know lots of you are really knowledgeable and I want to check I have understood this correctly (but I know some of you think I just want an argument so don’t reply if that’s the case). If I spent my entire life doing Good Works but I didn’t believe in God, would I still go to Hell? That’s kind of how it sounds but surely that can’t be right? Or does doing good not count if you don’t do it in God’s name? I genuinely don’t know - not looking to annoy anyone.

Sometimes to quote a fictional senator, "I would shake the hand of the devil to do god's work."

I think yes you do need to believe in god.
That said I could be wrong.

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 22:25

Hawkins009 · 08/08/2023 22:10

If your in a field and want to get dry some religious beliefs suggest eg praying etc and if you don't pray enough you'll still be wet,

Now logic is if you want to be dry then you need to have cover in the forest and it's not belief but science, and human actions that achieve this.

With that in mind why do we need to ask god for anything or even pray when instead we could be making it happen ourselves ?

Maybe we need to look for divinity a bit closer to home😀

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 22:35

Hawkins009 · 08/08/2023 22:13

Sometimes to quote a fictional senator, "I would shake the hand of the devil to do god's work."

I think yes you do need to believe in god.
That said I could be wrong.

Show quote history

It brings up an interesting question, can hell exist if you don’t believe in heaven.

I always find This section of Blake’s marriage of heaven and hell useful in contemplating this question

The Marriage of Heaven and Hell: [7] A Memorable Fancy by William Blake

Comments & analysis: An Angel came to me and said: “O pitiable foolish young man! O horrible, O dreadful state!

https://allpoetry.com/poem/15409312-The-Marriage-of-Heaven-and-Hell---7--A-Memorable-Fancy-by-William-Blake

Hawkins009 · 08/08/2023 22:39

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 22:35

It brings up an interesting question, can hell exist if you don’t believe in heaven.

I always find This section of Blake’s marriage of heaven and hell useful in contemplating this question

Show quote history

Much appreciated, religion and human thoughts behind their beliefs, very puzzling at times.

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 22:46

Thanks again @OMG12 and @Hawkins009 !

So if we accept that you must believe in God to avoid Hell AND that we cannot choose to believe… some of us are damned and there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it? Seems a bit rough.

I accept the argument that if you don’t believe in God then you don’t believe in Hell anyway but this feels fairer (for want of a better word) when applied to Heaven. As in, I’m quite okay with the idea of being a (relatively) good person and then not going to Heaven but just being dead. But being a good person and still being condemned to eternal damnation? If I believed in God I’d be constantly terrified of all the atheists I know burning in Hell despite being good people. How do those of you with faith cope with that?

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 22:47

Oh hadn’t seen the post about Blake before I posted that, will go and read that now! I’m learning a lot in this thread - thanks to all
who are humouring me!

Silverseas1 · 08/08/2023 23:02

I've read a lot of the posts and completely understand the sceptics. When I consider the suffering in all realms of life, it can be difficult to appreciate the beauty & wonders of the world. Many people say seeing is believing. On this account, given my sisters?? experience, I really have no option other than to believe.

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 23:05

“So if we accept that you must believe in God to avoid Hell AND that we cannot choose to believe… some of us are damned and there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it? Seems a bit rough. “ @ZebraDanios thays largely double predestination -speak to the Calvinists about that one

Silverseas1 · 08/08/2023 23:26

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 23:05

“So if we accept that you must believe in God to avoid Hell AND that we cannot choose to believe… some of us are damned and there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it? Seems a bit rough. “ @ZebraDanios thays largely double predestination -speak to the Calvinists about that one

There are so many interpretations of what is wittten to help us understand there is more to it than this life. It's undeniable scriptures from all faiths will no doubt contain fact & fiction, with both open to all kinds of interpretation. If you believe people have a soul which leaves the body when we die, you are a long way towards believing there is a spiritual world we know little about apart from the genuine stories we receive from those we trust.

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 23:49

Silverseas1 · 08/08/2023 23:02

I've read a lot of the posts and completely understand the sceptics. When I consider the suffering in all realms of life, it can be difficult to appreciate the beauty & wonders of the world. Many people say seeing is believing. On this account, given my sisters?? experience, I really have no option other than to believe.

I don’t think being aware of the suffering in the world makes it harder to appreciate the beauty and wonder in the world at all. In fact the beauty and wonder in the world are exactly why I think it seems kind of a shame to go through life feeling like there’s something better waiting for you after you die. I’d rather look at a bluebell and marvel that it exists in this world than think “meh, there’ll be better flowers in Heaven”.

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 06:00

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 23:49

I don’t think being aware of the suffering in the world makes it harder to appreciate the beauty and wonder in the world at all. In fact the beauty and wonder in the world are exactly why I think it seems kind of a shame to go through life feeling like there’s something better waiting for you after you die. I’d rather look at a bluebell and marvel that it exists in this world than think “meh, there’ll be better flowers in Heaven”.

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Good point Zebra. There is definitely so much in this life to be thankful for. The best things in life are free 😊

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 06:55

Silverseas1 · 08/08/2023 23:26

There are so many interpretations of what is wittten to help us understand there is more to it than this life. It's undeniable scriptures from all faiths will no doubt contain fact & fiction, with both open to all kinds of interpretation. If you believe people have a soul which leaves the body when we die, you are a long way towards believing there is a spiritual world we know little about apart from the genuine stories we receive from those we trust.

Show quote history

I think humans are entirely unaware of 99.99% of what there is., Whether that’s intellectual , physical or spiritual awareness.

I think all religions scratch the surface all contain a grain of truth. But each individual much seek an answer for themselves. We can listen to everything around us to help unlock the innate truth we all carry. I think the best place to start is contemplating your own death (although not recommended for everyone so needs to be carefully considered). And when I say contemplating your own death it means some deep meditation, I think it’s the most liberating thing you can do esp if you can access a non-drug induced altered state of consciousness.

What do you think the “soul” is?

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 07:02

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 23:49

I don’t think being aware of the suffering in the world makes it harder to appreciate the beauty and wonder in the world at all. In fact the beauty and wonder in the world are exactly why I think it seems kind of a shame to go through life feeling like there’s something better waiting for you after you die. I’d rather look at a bluebell and marvel that it exists in this world than think “meh, there’ll be better flowers in Heaven”.

Show quote history

Maybe as Blake puts it - you’re already seeing heaven in a wild flower. The next step is to hold infinity in the palm of your hand.

This world is made of opposites, can we see the Beaty of a bluebell without the harshness of a bramble? Can we have a day if there is no night, can we experience joy if there is no sadness? Maybe peace exists where we learn to accept both without judgement and learn to bring and accept the need for balancing of those opposites.

Peace Prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy.
O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 09:19

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 06:55

I think humans are entirely unaware of 99.99% of what there is., Whether that’s intellectual , physical or spiritual awareness.

I think all religions scratch the surface all contain a grain of truth. But each individual much seek an answer for themselves. We can listen to everything around us to help unlock the innate truth we all carry. I think the best place to start is contemplating your own death (although not recommended for everyone so needs to be carefully considered). And when I say contemplating your own death it means some deep meditation, I think it’s the most liberating thing you can do esp if you can access a non-drug induced altered state of consciousness.

What do you think the “soul” is?

Show quote history

'OMG' a good question thanks for asking.

The soul is part of the spiritual side to our being.
We all have a soul consisting of the mind, the personality, the memories, our emotions, the parts of us that are not physical. We nurture our body with healthy eating & excercise. We nurture our soul for example through prayer, kindness, good deeds & faith.

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 09:51

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 09:19

'OMG' a good question thanks for asking.

The soul is part of the spiritual side to our being.
We all have a soul consisting of the mind, the personality, the memories, our emotions, the parts of us that are not physical. We nurture our body with healthy eating & excercise. We nurture our soul for example through prayer, kindness, good deeds & faith.

Show quote history

thanks for answering- where do you think our soul originated from? Where does it go? Why do you think it incarnates? (Sorry about the questions- I’m always interested in exploring). I do agree with many of the points you made about the soul and body

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 10:57

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 09:51

thanks for answering- where do you think our soul originated from? Where does it go? Why do you think it incarnates? (Sorry about the questions- I’m always interested in exploring). I do agree with many of the points you made about the soul and body

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I agree, its fascinating. I work from home & have quite a busy day. I will have a think about your thoughtful questions & reply later 😁

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 11:54

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 10:57

I agree, its fascinating. I work from home & have quite a busy day. I will have a think about your thoughtful questions & reply later 😁

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Oh please don’t think you need to reply if you’re busy. Hope your day goes well (I’m off today😀).

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 12:06

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 10:57

I agree, its fascinating. I work from home & have quite a busy day. I will have a think about your thoughtful questions & reply later 😁

Show quote history

Break time so I'll try to make my answer brief & simple.

There are different views as to the origins of the soul. The view I personally find the most feasible is this. The soul and the body are passed on when created at conception. This means after conception the same way as the physical body develops and grows, with it so does the soul. When we die the body housing the soul is no more. It is then the soul becomes like an invisible traveler setting out to a new destination to the spiritual realm we call heaven.

This is my understanding although as in every topic within this subject there will be various interpretations & thats ok. In many walks of life there are beliefs which can be proven, beliefs which one day may be proven & beliefs which will never be proven. In respect of the soul the beliefs of those who do believe are strengthened through faith.

Mischance · 09/08/2023 12:52

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 07:02

Maybe as Blake puts it - you’re already seeing heaven in a wild flower. The next step is to hold infinity in the palm of your hand.

This world is made of opposites, can we see the Beaty of a bluebell without the harshness of a bramble? Can we have a day if there is no night, can we experience joy if there is no sadness? Maybe peace exists where we learn to accept both without judgement and learn to bring and accept the need for balancing of those opposites.

Peace Prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy.
O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Show quote history

I have never been able to read/hear that poem without shivering/gagging since Thatcher used it in her speech when she won the election - what a joke!

It sort of equates to religions being able to twist any quote from any religious tract to fit their narrative.

Mischance · 09/08/2023 12:55

We all have a soul consisting of the mind, the personality, the memories, our emotions,

Having spent many years working with people with brain injury I can assure you that all those aspects of who we are are dictated by the state of our physical brain. People with serious brain injuries lose their personalities, their mind, their memories and their emotions, depending upon which part of their brain is damaged. Nothing to do with an imagined "soul."

meanderingbrook · 09/08/2023 13:20

"People with serious brain injuries lose their personalities, their mind, their memories and their emotions, depending upon which part of their brain is damaged. Nothing to do with an imagined "soul.""

@Mischance

Unless the soul lives independent from the body and the body simply acts like a 'receiver' to the soul which it then projects. If the receiver/projector is broken the soul cannot project properly from the body. (I think this is similar to what Rupert Sheldrake suggests, if I remember correctly.)

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 13:47

Mischance · 09/08/2023 12:55

We all have a soul consisting of the mind, the personality, the memories, our emotions,

Having spent many years working with people with brain injury I can assure you that all those aspects of who we are are dictated by the state of our physical brain. People with serious brain injuries lose their personalities, their mind, their memories and their emotions, depending upon which part of their brain is damaged. Nothing to do with an imagined "soul."

Well there we go, you’ve solved the age old questions!

Alternative views of what you’re witnessing:

All those things still exist, the brain acts as a connection between the soul and body/physical world, this breaking of the bridge stops the travel of those things over

The part of the soul linked to that part of the brain has experienced its own death with the damage to the brain and already left for wherever souls go

If the soul interacts with the material world through the body, if the relevant part of the body is broken it can no longer interact with the world.

Now I quite agree that many of the aspects of spirituality are within the imagination but I highly suspect we have very different views on the imagination😀

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 13:48

meanderingbrook · 09/08/2023 13:20

"People with serious brain injuries lose their personalities, their mind, their memories and their emotions, depending upon which part of their brain is damaged. Nothing to do with an imagined "soul.""

@Mischance

Unless the soul lives independent from the body and the body simply acts like a 'receiver' to the soul which it then projects. If the receiver/projector is broken the soul cannot project properly from the body. (I think this is similar to what Rupert Sheldrake suggests, if I remember correctly.)

Exactly- I see we had similar thoughts

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 13:52

Mischance · 09/08/2023 12:52

I have never been able to read/hear that poem without shivering/gagging since Thatcher used it in her speech when she won the election - what a joke!

It sort of equates to religions being able to twist any quote from any religious tract to fit their narrative.

Show quote history

Dear Christ!!!!! On so many levels. I’m sure that St Francis was envisioning that exact usage and wrote it specifically for the occasion several hundred years before😂😂😂😂.

Would you like any more straws to grasp at to keep building your house?

OMG12 · 09/08/2023 13:56

Silverseas1 · 09/08/2023 12:06

Break time so I'll try to make my answer brief & simple.

There are different views as to the origins of the soul. The view I personally find the most feasible is this. The soul and the body are passed on when created at conception. This means after conception the same way as the physical body develops and grows, with it so does the soul. When we die the body housing the soul is no more. It is then the soul becomes like an invisible traveler setting out to a new destination to the spiritual realm we call heaven.

This is my understanding although as in every topic within this subject there will be various interpretations & thats ok. In many walks of life there are beliefs which can be proven, beliefs which one day may be proven & beliefs which will never be proven. In respect of the soul the beliefs of those who do believe are strengthened through faith.

Show quote history

Yes absolutely lots of ideas out there, so do you think the soul is created at conception or arrives already in existence and merges with the physical at conception?