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Original poster

If there is a God...why is there...

487 replies

sentinent · 03/08/2023 00:14

As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

OP posts:
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6
guineacup · 08/08/2023 07:36

@Jackandjillswell

And the other side of the coin:

"Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life!” (John 5:24)

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 07:55

The statement I was taking issue with was :

He believed he was quite literally the Son of God, in whom everyone must believe to avoid eternal torment.

He didn't 'believe' - he knew.

The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, outside the Church there is no salvation.” But as with all dogmas of the Faith, this has to be qualified and understood properly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church lays out the truth of the matter succinctly in paragraphs 846-848.

  1. There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.
  2. Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.
  3. Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (quoting, Lumen Gentium, 16).

meanderingbrook · 08/08/2023 08:20

@Jackandjillswell, do you think all Christians are catholic?

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 08:23

meanderingbrook · 08/08/2023 08:20

@Jackandjillswell, do you think all Christians are catholic?

No.

guineacup · 08/08/2023 08:32

He didn't 'believe' - he knew.

Of course believe and know do have subtly different meanings, but they are generally used quite interchangeably.

Besides, my point wasn't to provide a complete exposition of the theology of salvation, but to counter the narrative of Jesus being seen primarily as a sanitised "meek and mild" do-gooder..

meanderingbrook · 08/08/2023 08:33

@Jackandjillswell, but catholic does mean 'universal'. As in 'the church'. The lack of unity saddens me.

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 09:30

guineacup · 08/08/2023 08:32

He didn't 'believe' - he knew.

Of course believe and know do have subtly different meanings, but they are generally used quite interchangeably.

Besides, my point wasn't to provide a complete exposition of the theology of salvation, but to counter the narrative of Jesus being seen primarily as a sanitised "meek and mild" do-gooder..

my point wasn't to provide a complete exposition of the theology of salvation, but to counter the narrative of Jesus being seen primarily as a sanitised "meek and mild" do-gooder..

OK.

I don't know who promulgates the 'narrative' you speak of?

There are lots of recorded instances when Jesus got angry.

He turned over the money-changers tables in the Temple, he cursed the fig tree, he called out the Pharisees for hypocrisy, railed at rules that kept people from Him (such as not healing on the sabbath) and people stopping children coming to him. etc.

monsteramunch · 08/08/2023 09:35

@Jackandjillswell

who cherry-picks passages from Scripture to support his arguments.

To be fair, can't this be said of any follower of a religion with a text e.g. The Bible in 2023?

I doubt many (any?) are living by the words exactly as they are written. Instead they understand them as allegories rather than direct commands or facts / ignore the parts that are no longer deemed relevant culturally e.g mixing clothing materials, remarks about slavery etc.

So I always find it strange when someone who follows a faith accuses someone else of cherry picking passages that suit their narrative. That's what everyone does unless they live by the exact words.

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 09:50

So I always find it strange when someone who follows a faith accuses someone else of cherry picking passages that suit their narrative. That's what everyone does unless they live by the exact words.

That's not correct from where I'm sitting.

To save confusion about doctrine In 1566 the so-called Roman Catechism was published in response to the request issued three years earlier by the Council of Trent. Used until 1978, it inspired, as intended, the creation of many national catechisms.
When we talk about “the Catechism” today we are most likely referring to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992 to coincide with the 30th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council.

For more than a decade bishops, theologians, and other experts worked on a “compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding both faith and morals.”
The result was the catechism, an organized presentation of the essential teachings of the Catholic Church in regards to both faith and morals, “in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the church’s tradition.”

I can't speak for other denominations.

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 10:08

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 09:50

So I always find it strange when someone who follows a faith accuses someone else of cherry picking passages that suit their narrative. That's what everyone does unless they live by the exact words.

That's not correct from where I'm sitting.

To save confusion about doctrine In 1566 the so-called Roman Catechism was published in response to the request issued three years earlier by the Council of Trent. Used until 1978, it inspired, as intended, the creation of many national catechisms.
When we talk about “the Catechism” today we are most likely referring to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992 to coincide with the 30th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council.

For more than a decade bishops, theologians, and other experts worked on a “compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding both faith and morals.”
The result was the catechism, an organized presentation of the essential teachings of the Catholic Church in regards to both faith and morals, “in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the church’s tradition.”

I can't speak for other denominations.

Well or perhaps should be remembered that the Nicene Creed which set out to state what Christian’s believe was the source for

“We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.“

it’s certainly received in CofE and presumably forms the basis for most Christian beliefs. Catholic with a small c meaning universal, all encompassing

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 10:17

Sorry, I brought up the idea of Jesus as a meek and mild do-gooder; I said that I could get on board with Christianity IF the whole premise of it was that Jesus was nice to people and we should all be nice to people too but that God put me off. What I meant was that I’ve always felt that what Jesus taught about how we should act towards others seems very sensible (as in it would actually make our lives better) and if he were just a normal bloke and not the son of God we should all have listened to him anyway. I don’t see why he needed to come back from the dead etc for people to take him seriously (this may be partly what the parable of the Grand Inquisitor is about though if I remember it rightly).

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 18:43

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 10:17

Sorry, I brought up the idea of Jesus as a meek and mild do-gooder; I said that I could get on board with Christianity IF the whole premise of it was that Jesus was nice to people and we should all be nice to people too but that God put me off. What I meant was that I’ve always felt that what Jesus taught about how we should act towards others seems very sensible (as in it would actually make our lives better) and if he were just a normal bloke and not the son of God we should all have listened to him anyway. I don’t see why he needed to come back from the dead etc for people to take him seriously (this may be partly what the parable of the Grand Inquisitor is about though if I remember it rightly).

You should read the Infancy Gospel of Thomas - it might amgive a different perspective

Hawkins009 · 08/08/2023 18:48

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 18:43

You should read the Infancy Gospel of Thomas - it might amgive a different perspective

Show quote history

Indeed, seems Jesus was quite omg at times.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 18:56

Hawkins009 · 08/08/2023 18:48

Indeed, seems Jesus was quite omg at times.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

Show quote history

Yep, despite monty Pythons claims- it seems possible to be both the Messiah AND a very naughty boy

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 18:59

OMG12 Well or perhaps should be remembered that the Nicene Creed which set out to state what Christian’s believe was the source for

“We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.“

it’s certainly received in CofE and presumably forms the basis for most Christian beliefs.

How we wish it was that simple !

Filioque is a Latin word meaning "and the Son" which was added to the Nicene Creed by the Church of Rome in the 11th century, one of the major factors leading to the Great Schism between East and West.
This inclusion in the Creedal article thus states that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son."

Its inclusion in the Creed is a violation of the Canons of the Third Ecumenical Council in 431, which forbade and condemned any additions to the Creed. This word was not included by the Council of Nicaea nor of Constantinople.

So Eastern Orthodox Churches have a Creed without the "and the Son" part.

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 19:37

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 18:59

OMG12 Well or perhaps should be remembered that the Nicene Creed which set out to state what Christian’s believe was the source for

“We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.“

it’s certainly received in CofE and presumably forms the basis for most Christian beliefs.

How we wish it was that simple !

Filioque is a Latin word meaning "and the Son" which was added to the Nicene Creed by the Church of Rome in the 11th century, one of the major factors leading to the Great Schism between East and West.
This inclusion in the Creedal article thus states that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son."

Its inclusion in the Creed is a violation of the Canons of the Third Ecumenical Council in 431, which forbade and condemned any additions to the Creed. This word was not included by the Council of Nicaea nor of Constantinople.

So Eastern Orthodox Churches have a Creed without the "and the Son" part.

Well, yes there are certainly many doctrinal differences (some of which are fundamental) between Christian’s.

But I don’t necessarily think “one holy Catholic apostolic church” excludes that. Catholic in this context means all embracing. Now should that all embracing be limited to the thoughts:doctrines and practices existing at a time contemporary with the drawing together of the creed? Or should the all embracing be timeless?

Obviously the other parts of the creed are much more difficult. Should we even have a trinity rather than a quandrinity (arguably including Mary or satan?

the Eastern church has a lot more authenticity to it imo.

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 20:09

I'm trying to follow your posts but am getting confused with Catholic - large 'C'

and Catholic small 'c'.

I would tend to agree that Eastern Orthodox had more authenticity.

However, they reject the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Purgatory.

The early Church lived in expectation of the "day of the Lord," the day of His coming again. The Eastern Church later realized that its time is known but to God; still, some signs of Christ's second coming were expected:

  1. The Gospel will be preached everywhere in the world (Matt. 24: 14; Luke 18:8; John 10: 16);
  2. The Jews will be converted to Christ (Rom. 11:25-26; cf. Hosea 3:5);
  3. Elijah, or even Enoch, will return (Mark 9:11);
  4. The Antichrist will appear with numerous false prophets accompanying him (1 John 2:10; 2 Thes. 2:3; Matt. 24:5);
  5. Physical phenomena, upheavals, wars, sufferings will occur (Matt. 24:6; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:25); and,
  6. The world will be destroyed by fire (ekpyrosis; see 2 Peter 3:5).

Having said that, some of my friends who were previously Anglicans have converted to Western Orthodox, a branch of the Eastern Orthodox Church which performs it's Rites in Western forms.

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 20:29

@OMG12 and @Hawkins009 - thank you, what a fascinating read! (And “Jesus was quite omg at times” made me laugh!)

Is there a belief system based around a person who was just really nice, then? The Buddha was nice (and didn’t kill any children in his youth because they bumped into him), wasn’t he…?

EducatingArti · 08/08/2023 20:41

The Buddha was pretty awful to his wife and effectively abandoned her iirc

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 20:51

EducatingArti · 08/08/2023 20:41

The Buddha was pretty awful to his wife and effectively abandoned her iirc

Yep-he would have got an absolute roasting if Mumsnet had been around then!

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 20:59

Damn that’s Buddhism out then.

I know lots of you are really knowledgeable and I want to check I have understood this correctly (but I know some of you think I just want an argument so don’t reply if that’s the case). If I spent my entire life doing Good Works but I didn’t believe in God, would I still go to Hell? That’s kind of how it sounds but surely that can’t be right? Or does doing good not count if you don’t do it in God’s name? I genuinely don’t know - not looking to annoy anyone.

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 21:06

Jackandjillswell · 08/08/2023 20:09

I'm trying to follow your posts but am getting confused with Catholic - large 'C'

and Catholic small 'c'.

I would tend to agree that Eastern Orthodox had more authenticity.

However, they reject the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Purgatory.

The early Church lived in expectation of the "day of the Lord," the day of His coming again. The Eastern Church later realized that its time is known but to God; still, some signs of Christ's second coming were expected:

  1. The Gospel will be preached everywhere in the world (Matt. 24: 14; Luke 18:8; John 10: 16);
  2. The Jews will be converted to Christ (Rom. 11:25-26; cf. Hosea 3:5);
  3. Elijah, or even Enoch, will return (Mark 9:11);
  4. The Antichrist will appear with numerous false prophets accompanying him (1 John 2:10; 2 Thes. 2:3; Matt. 24:5);
  5. Physical phenomena, upheavals, wars, sufferings will occur (Matt. 24:6; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:25); and,
  6. The world will be destroyed by fire (ekpyrosis; see 2 Peter 3:5).

Having said that, some of my friends who were previously Anglicans have converted to Western Orthodox, a branch of the Eastern Orthodox Church which performs it's Rites in Western forms.

Ah sorry - bloody autocorrect! catholic is the Nicene creed obviously means all encompassing rather than Roman Catholic as it was meant to bring together the diverse opinions

Purgatory, for me is a no. There’s not much reason to believe in it (esp since indulgences died a death😀).

Not really onboard with an immaculate conception of a physical body, can buy into it with spirit a bit more. If Jesus was god mad man he would need to be made by man.

But then I believe we are all Christ.

OMG12 · 08/08/2023 21:34

ZebraDanios · 08/08/2023 20:59

Damn that’s Buddhism out then.

I know lots of you are really knowledgeable and I want to check I have understood this correctly (but I know some of you think I just want an argument so don’t reply if that’s the case). If I spent my entire life doing Good Works but I didn’t believe in God, would I still go to Hell? That’s kind of how it sounds but surely that can’t be right? Or does doing good not count if you don’t do it in God’s name? I genuinely don’t know - not looking to annoy anyone.

Well most cult leaders (most religions at least start out as cults are pretty fucked up)

Well there’s lots of potential answers to your question.

some would argue you can only come to God through Jesus, it’ll you’re not near God you’re in hell. It is by faith alone.

some would argue double predestination- it’s already decided where you’re going.

What is hell anyway? If you don’t believe in God why believe in hell?

Each denomination have their own rules (all claiming to be the right one of course).

Now some belief systems are much more about what you do. But generally with those were already in hell we just need to extricate ourselves from it

Hawkins009 · 08/08/2023 22:10

If your in a field and want to get dry some religious beliefs suggest eg praying etc and if you don't pray enough you'll still be wet,

Now logic is if you want to be dry then you need to have cover in the forest and it's not belief but science, and human actions that achieve this.

With that in mind why do we need to ask god for anything or even pray when instead we could be making it happen ourselves ?

Annaishere · 08/08/2023 22:12

Because we have to pray to god that he will lead us to the forest