If there is a God...why is there...

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As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

Lol !

I don't think anyone can choose to believe in the same way as they can choose not to believe.

Faith is strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. Sts. Augustine and Aquinas stressed that the object of belief cannot be seen or directly perceived nor proven by mere logic.

If you can prove it, you don’t need to believe in it.

@JaukiVexnoydi That was how I always interpreted Pascal’s Wager as well. God could so easily produce proof of his existence but he specifically wants us to believe without proof. Therefore a belief born of just hedging one’s bets wouldn’t be enough for him - he’d know that wasn’t real faith.

@Jackandjillswell Sorry, I know you don’t like me talking to you, but I think to an extent you can choose to believe or not believe.

There must be loads of people who know there’s no evidence for God’s existence and rationally can’t reconcile themselves to that BUT they don’t think about that too much and they really like the idea of there being a God so they choose to believe in him. I think your average casual cultural Christian, who calls themselves a Christian but doesn’t go to church regularly or know the Bible inside out, probably falls into this category.

(Equally there are loads of people who accept that you can’t prove God exists so know they can never say without certainty there isn’t one, but decide that they don’t believe in anything without proof so on balance choose not to believe in him.)

I completely agree that you can’t steadfastly believe there is no God and then consciously decide that actually you do believe in him after all, but I think it’s possible to be on the fence and convince yourself one way or another. I also think it’s possible to have been raised in a religious culture and continue to believe in a God without really thinking about it too much or questioning it.

@ZebraDanios but I think it’s possible to be on the fence and convince yourself one way or another.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Anyone who suspends positive belief, for whatever reason, should be classed as 'agnostic',
The softer form of agnostic is somebody who just describes their psychological state, and essentially they’re saying, “Look, I don’t know. I just don’t know.” There are stronger agnostics who then go further and say, “We cannot know.” But now that’s making a stronger claim. And the moment you go and you start to make any sort of claim about knowledge, about knowing something, including that you know that we cannot know, you now acquire a burden of proof.

That depends what you mean by "wrong god" - "wrong" for who?

And that presupposes that there are "good gods" and "bad gods"? Who decides that?

The Greeks and Romans had that idea and tried their best to keep the "good gods" on their side.

There's also the faith-despite-doubt option which I feel is perfectly described by Puddleglum in The Silver Chair (Substitute Christ for Aslan, and Kingdom of Heaven for Narnia/Overworld as needed)

Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So (...) we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s a small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say.

As in not the real one.

So if you worship a God that doesn't exist, the God that does exist could get pissed off and send you to hell. So by believing in God you could potentially still lose the wager.

That's real conundrum isn't it?

That's why I was hoping for input from members of other Faiths who don't worship the Christian God.

So far it seems no-one wants to put their head above the parapet. 🤔

I think there is a choice element within belief in that belief can be pursued and faith does indeed develop over a lifetime.

Unbelief can be actively dismissed and the scripture details Jesus talking about this when the disciples asked why they had not been successful in their attempts at healing.

From my own experience it is a process. Erroneous thoughts are dismissed and more faithful thoughts are put in their place and focussed upon. In the Christian faith it is believed prayer is effectual, Jesus' word is effectual so then there is the hope that belief and faith will deepen.

It's the same with any belief - focus on it. Spend time thinking how it can be true. The person effectively convinces themselves. A position is then taken.

And all this stuff concerning 'burden of proof'. Well, I lay that burden down. I don't require it. In my opinion there is very little that is 100% proven in this life. Science is contextual and could be simply describing very large common patterns or 'habits' within the natural which might change if the context were correct. (I have followed the theories of Rupert Sheldrake with interest upon this subject.)

Well I answered the question about Gnosticism and Neoplatonism

Well, that was very welcome.

Doesn't look like there will be any more takers...🤔

Probably not😀. It’s MN after all, where God= old bloke/everyone’s favourite omnipotent dude doing nothing but good and giving cuddles.

He’s not slaying babies to get his chosen people to go and live a place 100 days walk away but letting them wander in the desert for 40 years carrying a radioactive box.

I mean we could take the same God and discuss from the perspective of say a 13th century BC Egyptian mother whose son was killed because the pharaoh didn’t do what the Hebrew God via the ancient equivalent of Harry didn’t get what he wanted. Or Abraham who went through the trauma of nearly killing his own son to prove how much he loved this loving God. It’s probably easier to see why such a god wouldn’t care about little Johnnies cancer.

@WandaWonder

I didn't think it was such a wacky idea, people say 'why does god allow famines, disease etc' but I don't notice as many say 'why does god allow promotions, finding money on the ground, seeing a nice view etc'.

This is an abusers' logic.... you know, the kind of man who is angry that his wife dares to complain about the beatings and the abuse, because he buys her jewellery and gives her money to treat herself to a nice dress now and again!

Whatever CS Lewis' intentions, to me that saying that we should seek to live a good life, irrespective of an whether there's a God... with this perspective, it follows that the question of the existence of God loses relevance.

The thing is, that's not the Jesus of the Bible. He wasn't some "nice guy" who went around saying soothing stuff about forgiveness and mercy. He believed he was quite literally the Son of God, in whom everyone must believe to avoid eternal torment.

I don’t think he said that

That's nonsense - please tell me where this is stated?

There are many Christian atheists or agnostics, saying pretty much that - living as if there is a God, as if the life of Christ mattered beyond the prosaic reality of a minor rabbi in the middle east 2000 years ago and as if our own existence might also resonate beyond reality, is worth it even if the "as if"s aren't true.

There are many Christian atheists or agnostics

Well, that's an oxymoron for starters...

Some of them are priests or bishops

Yes people call themselves Christians for lots of reasons, they’re often referred to as cultural Christian’s

https://theologyintheraw.com/biblical-arguments-for-eternal-conscious-torment/

That's one man's opinion. Someone who doesn't follow any particular faith, who isn't a priest, who cherry-picks passages from Scripture to support his arguments.

"He works hard to challenge himself and others to read the Bible with conviction and humility, while holding their predetermined beliefs loosely." Hmmm.

So are the “flames of fire” of hell literal? No, they are not. In fact, it should be obvious that they are not literal right now because the souls in hell do not presently have bodies.

Hell is primarily eternal separation from God. “The state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed.” It is absolute emptiness and isolation beyond anything we can fathom.

Sin is the rejection of the love of God and neighbour. It is ultimate selfishness. Ultimately, the damned will simply get what they wanted—themselves for all eternity!

@Jackandjillswell

That's nonsense - please tell me where this is stated?

Here you go:

www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-uncomfortable-subject-jesus-addressed-more-than-anyone-else/?amp