Atheists -what makes you so sure?

[OMG12]

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

It just isn't logical and science disproves the claims of the Bible.

I object to being expected to justify why I don’t believe in god. As far as I am concerned, atheist is the default position. Those who believe have no proof that god exists, so this post to me is just an ill informed attempt to push the burden of proof onto the other side.

The smug and self righteous attitude adopted by so many Christians in particular does not make it a group I am anxious to join. And I think ‘joining’ is at the heart of most religions. Feeling like part of a group, having a social life and being told what to think and do is very appealing to a section of society. The truly intelligent Christians who actually do their best to do the difficult work expected of them, in terms of caring for the less fortunate and loving all people - often find themselves on the outer with their churches as they become outspoken and show up the other members who are just there for a social life and don’t actually want to make personal sacrifices.

For me, the history of religion is the most telling.
Egyptians, Greeks, Pagans, etc. all had gods (or similar) for weather, emotions, etc. - things they were yet to understand but science has made most of those gods redundant.

Religion is there to give tangibility to the unexplained and yet to be understood. But mostly, it's about control in its modern form. Why did Christians take over pagan festivals other than to enforce their beliefs on others? Why is so much religious text about controlling human behaviour and how to think? Why are religions based on male dominance and female submission?

Other reasons:
The ability for many religious people to cherry-pick what they believe in from the texts and dismiss what they don't like.

The fact that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all believe in the same god but at no point has this "all loving god" thought to clarify his position and stop them killing each other?

That in over 2,000 years and all the horror that's gone on god hasn't stepped in - he committed genocide with Noah to rid the worst of people but some of the people in more recent history haven't incurred his wrath?

I cannot have blind faith in something that makes no logical sense in the world I live in.

Unless I was in a zero/low gravity space then it would be fine.

I guess what I’m trying to say is scientific explanation is very context dependent, why should scientific explanation (designed for the physical world, designed by man) ever be able to explain or prove the absence of “god”. Even the illusion of the sun rising in the East is dependent on a man made categorisation of directions, it could just as easily arise in the West, as soon as language is used to describe something it becomes an arbitrary categorisation. When does a stool become a table? Both are just collections of atoms we have attached labels to. Ultimately is space time real?

But aren’t all those objections about religions rather than the concept of divinity?

I think these are finely tuned definitions.

I am an atheist. I do not believe there are any gods because I have seen no evidence of any gods. I am 100% certain gods like the Christian prayer-answering god do not exist in the same way that I am 100% certain that there are no fairies in my garden and I’m 100% convinced that the bottle of water in my fridge cannot turn itself into wine. I do not consider this to be agnosticism. Like all good scientists, I am willing to be proved wrong. It’s not a faith position.

With regard to a hands-off imperceptible creator I guess I am agnostic. It’s not possible for us to know. But I don’t really care, until it’s proven. Much as I don’t care about the invisible, insubstantial, silent dragon in my garage.

@OMG12 Fair enough. If everything was completely different, things could be completely different. I agree.

I’m wondering though, is belief a sliding scale or is it binary? You either believe ir you don’t.

I think it all depends on what you think "god" is. I don't believe in a god as a being or sentient entity, but I wouldn't call myself an atheist. For me "god" is a metaphor. The universe is an immense and unknowable thing and we're barely a dot within it. Science is really just scratching the surface of understanding and for me that it worthy of awe. Isn't that all god and religion has ever been? Trying to put a face and shape we recognise on to something we can't explain? So I think there is room for both science and god.

I do wish there were humanist services to go to though. A weekly get together, community and reflection on life, atonement for wrong doings seems a healthy way to spend an hour. I’ve tried to believe for the sake of the art, songs, well-being that goes with it, but no dice!

Couldn't agree more!

For me, the history of religion is the most telling. Egyptians, Greeks, Pagans, etc. all had gods (or similar) for weather, emotions, etc. - things they were yet to understand but science has made most of those gods redundant.

Yeah, but you could equally argue that about science itself. Most of what we have believed about science at one point or another has turned out to be wrong, but that doesn't mean that science as a thing is wrong, just that our understanding was lacking.

So the ridiculousness of religions does not, of itself, disprove the existence of a god. It could just be an artefact of our limited understanding.

@WiseUpJanetWeiss "Much as I don’t care about the invisible, insubstantial, silent dragon in my garage."

When my ds was little, he had a complex fantasy about some miniature, mostly invisible, ice dragons that lived in our freezer. 20 years later, I still sometimes think of them and wish I could see them when I reach for the frozen peas.....But I know I won't.

If you are Christian, I recommend Evensong. No sermon and - if you go to a choral one - wonderful music. I stopped believing in the Christian god when I was 10, but I still go to Evensong from time to time, for exactly the reasons you're describing.

If you are of Christian heritage, I mean - obviously you are not a Christian, if you are an atheist!

@BitOutOfPractice Belief in God is binary. Adherence to religion is largely pragmatic and cultural.

I thought we’d been told several times by the op that we are discussing belief in god, not religion @CurlewKate

Blimey, that’s a rather angry take on the question! I’m not asking you to justify anything, you really don’t have to partake in the thread. I’m just interested why people hold this position. I find it helpful in exploring my own thoughts to listen to others perspectives.

i think there’s many complex reasons for the existence of religion, although I think that’s a question that’s easily divorced from the existence of a supreme power.

Maybe things are completely different to what we think.

This, I think raises a very interesting point. In the West are we now generally of Christian heritage as it’s shaped our culture for thousands of years (and the cultures that shaped Christianity existed for thousands of years before that). Is there an intrinsic value to the rituals associated with organised religion (I would say adopted by Christianity). A value that is still relevant to humanity even when stripped of its story wrapper? If so, why is that need there? What does it signify?

This I agree with wholeheartedly

Maybe you’ll see them if you get old and return to a childlike way of viewing the world

Ritual, shared values, and promise/threat are society’s glue?

There are several groups that hold secular “church like” meetings, depending where you live if you google them in your local area. But I agree re traditional Christian music and some of the rituals. I sometimes go a long to out local Cof E Eucharist service and take holy communion (I am confirmed) I probably take something different from it but I don’t think my views are particularly at odds with consubstantiation.

Agreed except that science is constantly questioning, reassessing and proving theories.

Religion is fixed. Why do Jews need an eruv to allow them to live in a more modern world rather than update the rules?

Most religions evolve (if that's not an oxymoron!): adherents who insist on trying to live as the religion required thousands of years ago are the exception, at least in Christianity and Judaism. However, I take your point that the mission of science is to question, which is very much not the mission of religion. But I still don't think we can discount a god on the basis of anything human-constructed.