Atheists -what makes you so sure?

[OMG12]

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

But then I would argue the basis of spirituality is to constantly question, to seek. Mind you I think many believers have gone through and continue to go through a lot of questioning, it’s quite insulting to say just because someone believes in X they haven’t questioned it. I would hope anyone who holds any position has gone through a lot of questions and searching to find what they perceive as being the truth

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow "But I still don't think we can discount a god on the basis of anything human-constructed."

Well, we can. Based on everything we know now. There is always the possibility that something new will emerge.

But what if I said water could be turned into wine if you read the Bible in a certain way and understand the meaning of the passage in that context. Maybe consider it in the context of spiritual alchemy?

@OMG12 "I would hope anyone who holds any position has gone through a lot of questions and searching to find what they perceive as being the truth"

You are aware of the story of Thomas, I assume?

@OMG12 "But what if I said water could be turned into wine if you read the Bible in a certain way and understand the meaning of the passage in that context."

I would say "Show me."

And what do we know now that discounts the possibility of a god?

I would say read a book on spiritual alchemy to show you.

For a lot of people who have no God in their lives there is little distinction between the subtleties of agnosticism and atheism. They don't give the matter any thought or real reflection because belief is an irrelevance in their lives and any distinction is purely a semantic one. I think more schools need to teach ethics and philosophy. We'd see an increase in the numbers of agnostics if people actually understood the difference.

I've taught ethics and was always surprised at the unquestioning acceptance of religion. One student turned up clutching a bible for protection against 'my' dangerous ideas. That's the aspect of belief I find disturbing. Other students feel that the label 'atheist' has too many negative connotations and feel much happier with the less extreme label of agnostic. They are still essentially atheist with no belief in the divine but willing to accept any evidence to prove otherwise. What that evidence needs to be is another thread.

I have had this discussion with my very scientific partner who, on the basis of no proof either way, remains agnostic.

Name is nothing personal OP as it is actually my real user name, just rather apt for this thread 😀

@OMG12 "I would say read a book on spiritual alchemy to show you."

And I would say that it's up to the person making extraordinary claims to demonstrate them.

"And what do we know now that discounts the possibility of a god?"

The complete absence of anything that indicates he exists.

Here you go

So we don’t have anything that proves or disproves a God in science?

I'm sure there's not a god/gods/divine presence for the same reason that others believe there is/are.

It's what I believe at my most basic level. There's nothing in me that resonates with the idea of divinity so I'm very comfortable with describing myself as an atheist.

That being said, I do respect those who feel differently - how someone feels is no more or less valid than how I feel...providing they aren't doing harm because of it.

I think having a closed mind is a problem at either end of the spectrum. I like your partners position.

so Spinoza, atheist or pantheist or neither?

@OMG12 yes-very entertaining. I did have a sneaking suspicion you were taking the piss before, actually....

Religion and the concept of a god go hand in hand. They are all man-made ideals.

Interesting that you think I sound angry when it is you in your responses calling people narrow minded for disagreeing with you. We are not angry at all, perfectly happy without a god in our lives, as one is not needed. And one doesn’t exist. You think I sound angry. I think you sound like a nutter. And this is why I don’t have many religious friends.

Politically atheist on the basis of the harm religion does but philosophically probably an agnostic. Just don't tell my partner because his smugness will be unbearable.

How bizarre - why do you think that? I’m not “taking the piss” why would you say that? Is there something I can clarify for you, you’ve obviously misinterpreted something

OP I am not angry at all I’m happy to have discussion but I don’t find your stimulus question to be, well, stimulating.

PP raised a good point as an atheist I find myself far more tolerant of the range of religions than those who have committed to one. I have a friend who is Anglican whose favourite topic is how terrible Catholics are. She struggles with the fact that my kids have attended a couple of bar mitzvahs/bat mitzvahs and DH and I have attended 2 weddings in synagogues (we are not from a Jewish background we just have Jewish friends). We have Hindu and Muslim friends. And atheists! I find discussing religions interesting until the person tries to weave in how religion makes them morally superior. Most don’t, thankfully.

Why does the existence of a god go hand in hand with religion?

Im a “nutter” are all people who disagree with you mentally ill? Are you a psychiatrist? Interesting tactic, previously employed largely by religions actually to claim that people who disagree with you are mad!!!

surely the opposite of being open minded is narrow minded/closed minded and therefore anyone at either end of the spectrum who is not open minded to there being or not being a god is by definition narrow minded/closed minded on the subject. What’s the alternative?

But generally, I believe I have used the term”narrow interpretation” which is a statement of fact (as in the opposite of broad definition).

still sounding angry though.

But again that’s religion not god.

Why does the existence of a god go hand in hand with religion?

This feels rather disingenuous OP, to the point it makes the thread feel goady rather than genuinely the result of curiosity.

You don't have to belong to an organised religion to believe in god, obviously, but god and religion are so interlinked that to discuss one without any reference (which you seem to be keen for people to do as you keep saying 'but that's religion') to the other means there can't really be a meaningful discussion.

Of course. I had a very spiritual encounter that I personally couldn't deny. It led me to the Bible and all of a sudden it looked and felt so different to me. Since then, every single prayer I've prayed has been answered. And I'm not talking about 'please give me more money' and material things like that. I mean, please give me a child and the next week I found out I was pregnant type prayers. For me now, it's very apparent.

@OMG12 Praying in aid a work supposedly written in the 17th century by a character now believed to be fictional does not strike me as the act of a person taking the discussion seriously.

"I just wonder why people don’t believe." They don't believe because there is no reason to. It is that simple.

(And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

This is as "angry" as anything @MariaVT65 has posted.