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Original poster

Atheists -what makes you so sure?

585 replies

OMG12 · 14/06/2023 19:12

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

OP posts:
Original poster
OMG12 · 03/10/2023 22:18

Ponderingwindow · 03/10/2023 21:10

Then why isn’t every human divine? How is a human any different than a god?

Who says they aren’t? In fact it says this in the bible. Twice - “you are Gods” (there’s an argument about the word Elohim - but that none was also used for the creator God)

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Pandor · 04/10/2023 06:21

OMG12 · 03/10/2023 20:46

Well, I think the comparison with love is quite helpful as we probably both agree it exists. But what is it? Yes we could debate the meanings all day, yes we would both have out subjective experience of it, but then we have our subjective experience of everything. If someone never feels love does it exist or not? Is there a possibility God both fully exists and doesn’t exist at all? Are we living in our own universes creating our own reality around us? What is consciousness anyway?

Maybe invisible rainbow unicorns exist who knows. Does it matter? Well it depends on whether I think they have an impact.

Why is a god unnecessary? I don’t think you’ve explained that. Why anything necessary?

Show quote history

You hint at the possibility of solipsism here and whether is is important whether something exists at all.

I would say that for me it is important to something to exist in order gfor me to believe that it exists.

As for why is a god unnecessary…existent things can either be contingent (they exist, but it is conceivable that they might not exist) or necessary (it is not conceivable that the thing couldn’t exist). Certain abstract concepts arguably fall into the latter category.

I would argue god is a contingent concept as it is conceivable that god does not exist - god is therefore not a necessary concept.

if the existence or non-existence of god is contingent you must look to other evidence to determine whether god actually exists. If the evidence of existence is lacking it would run counter to Occam’s razor to come down on the side of existence.

You started the thread wondering why some people don’t believe. That is my answer.

Original poster
OMG12 · 04/10/2023 07:06

Pandor · 04/10/2023 06:21

You hint at the possibility of solipsism here and whether is is important whether something exists at all.

I would say that for me it is important to something to exist in order gfor me to believe that it exists.

As for why is a god unnecessary…existent things can either be contingent (they exist, but it is conceivable that they might not exist) or necessary (it is not conceivable that the thing couldn’t exist). Certain abstract concepts arguably fall into the latter category.

I would argue god is a contingent concept as it is conceivable that god does not exist - god is therefore not a necessary concept.

if the existence or non-existence of god is contingent you must look to other evidence to determine whether god actually exists. If the evidence of existence is lacking it would run counter to Occam’s razor to come down on the side of existence.

You started the thread wondering why some people don’t believe. That is my answer.

Show quote history

Interesting, so in essence it boils down to two separate perspectives idealism vs materialism (in various degrees)?

thank you for your erudite response- it’s very helpful in answering my question.

in the spirit of solipsism it is therefore conceivable that there both is and is not a god depending on the observer? Of course this doesn’t work in the materialist philosophy.

Is light a wave or a particle?

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aSofaNearYou · 04/10/2023 07:46

Maybe you’re wishful thinking lies in there being no eternal consequences to how you live your life, or that you don’t have to change how you live it and view the world, maybe it makes your life easier to have no god.

Nope, not the case at all. The idea is perfectly appealing to me I just don't believe in it.

why does the concept of divinity not fit with any existing logic?

I don't feel I should need to answer this question again, it's been answered so many times by so many, it's been the subject of the thread. Because there's never been any actual known supernatural force in the world, ever, and as Pandor said, because it isn't explaining anything unexplainable anymore. We already have a perfectly good explanation for how life and the universe evolved that we do actually have evidence for, which does not suggest or necessitate any kind of divinity. And I know you will say the two aren't mutually exclusive, which I get. It doesn't rule it out, but it doesn't suggest it either. I do not see that there has ever been enough of a suggestion that there is anything supernatural or divine, ever, especially to say that it's the kind of thing that would typically exist in our world.

CurlewKate · 04/10/2023 11:14

Adam Rutherford on the need for scientific rigor "“Science is quite the opposite of common sense. Our egregiously limited senses, combined with our deeply flawed psychologies, beset as they are by deep cognitive biases, reveal a hugely skewed and plainly wrong view of reality. We invented science to bypass these very human errors”

Original poster
OMG12 · 04/10/2023 13:23

CurlewKate · 04/10/2023 11:14

Adam Rutherford on the need for scientific rigor "“Science is quite the opposite of common sense. Our egregiously limited senses, combined with our deeply flawed psychologies, beset as they are by deep cognitive biases, reveal a hugely skewed and plainly wrong view of reality. We invented science to bypass these very human errors”

The level of irony in that is stratospheric!

OP posts:
Original poster
OMG12 · 04/10/2023 13:28

aSofaNearYou · 04/10/2023 07:46

Maybe you’re wishful thinking lies in there being no eternal consequences to how you live your life, or that you don’t have to change how you live it and view the world, maybe it makes your life easier to have no god.

Nope, not the case at all. The idea is perfectly appealing to me I just don't believe in it.

why does the concept of divinity not fit with any existing logic?

I don't feel I should need to answer this question again, it's been answered so many times by so many, it's been the subject of the thread. Because there's never been any actual known supernatural force in the world, ever, and as Pandor said, because it isn't explaining anything unexplainable anymore. We already have a perfectly good explanation for how life and the universe evolved that we do actually have evidence for, which does not suggest or necessitate any kind of divinity. And I know you will say the two aren't mutually exclusive, which I get. It doesn't rule it out, but it doesn't suggest it either. I do not see that there has ever been enough of a suggestion that there is anything supernatural or divine, ever, especially to say that it's the kind of thing that would typically exist in our world.

“Nope, not the case at all. The idea is perfectly appealing to me I just don't believe in it.”

So it does all boil down to belief?

Exactly, it doesn’t rule out the existence of God, something doesn’t have to be necessary to exist. Is art necessary?

Evidence can exist outside the scope of a scientific definition on a personal basis and the idea of Gods might be perfect rational to an individual.

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aSofaNearYou · 04/10/2023 13:50

So it does all boil down to belief?

Yes of course it does, isn't that the subject of the debate?

Exactly, it doesn’t rule out the existence of God, something doesn’t have to be necessary to exist. Is art necessary?

No, but art is physically, evidently there. God doesn't have to be necessary to exist but there's no sign of it and it isn't necessary for the world to make sense... so it's very unlikely and there's no reason to think it's real.

Evidence can exist outside the scope of a scientific definition on a personal basis and the idea of Gods might be perfect rational to an individual.

The only "evidence", at all, is people saying they have felt the presence of a God. But they rarely explain what it is they saw or felt, just that they did. Those people should probably just accept that they are not offering a very convincing reason for anybody else to believe what they're saying, because in the absence of some more compelling detail, it sounds very much like them just reading too much into a "feeling". It's akin to when somebody says they "feel" like a house is haunted. Yes I know you would probably believe them, but hopefully you are aware that most rational people do dismiss it out of hand as just something they have convinced themselves of for no real reason.

CurlewKate · 04/10/2023 15:06

@OMG12 "The level of irony in that is stratospheric!"

I think you are misunderstanding Dr Rutherford. In fact, I know you are-otherwise you wouldn't have posted that!

Original poster
OMG12 · 04/10/2023 16:43

CurlewKate · 04/10/2023 15:06

@OMG12 "The level of irony in that is stratospheric!"

I think you are misunderstanding Dr Rutherford. In fact, I know you are-otherwise you wouldn't have posted that!

Oh no I’ve not misunderstand him at all. Do you honestly think science bypasses all these things? Really?

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BarrenBachelor · 04/10/2023 17:06

To speak of “atheists” as a group is mistaken in the first place: unlike members of religious groups, each of us has our own idiosyncratic logic and beliefs, and to assume there is a reason or set of reasons “we” don’t believe in gods is unwarranted. I can only speak for myself, and there may be some who agree with me, but it’s all very simple: You believe things because you need to believe them, and I see no reason to believe in gods. In former times I might have, especially if I were living in a society that tortured and killed nonbelievers (see the history of most major religions), but that is no longer the case. I am content to think of myself as a animal among other animals, doing what I need to do to survive and, I hope, flourish. I don’t deny that religion has influenced my ideas about morality and purpose, but I tend to think this has been less for the good and more to my detriment. That said, I have no problem with people who are very close to me believing in gods, just so long as they do not take their belief to some psychotic or murderous place (as more than a few do and have done). I have no interest in converting believers into atheists: many believers, I suspect, would behave in a sociopathic manner if they were persuaded that there is not a punishing, vengeful god waiting to call them to account should they indulge such behaviors.
Of course I am biased, but the bigger mystery to me is why such a large number of people continue to cling to religion (and to similar systems — e.g., therapy junkies, astrology buffs, etc.). But I would not be so impertinent as to come out and ask.

BarrenBachelor · 04/10/2023 17:20

And who would want to be spending eternity with someone who is satisfied to believe such bullocks?

Londisc · 04/10/2023 18:17

You believe things because you need to believe them... I am content to think of myself as a animal among other animals, doing what I need to do to survive and, I hope, flourish... mystery to me is why such a large number of people continue to cling to religion.

They do it for the same reasons that you cling to your idea that you are an animal functioning among other animals. We do the thing that gets us through - and, hopefully, to flourish in - a self-conscious, fragile, human life.

So you take your pick. Plump for the option that best supports your inner life in order to survive, and hopefully thrive, amongst those who are experiencing life alongside you. It is not impertinent to ask others about their personal experience if you are interested. In my view, however, it is somewhat inapposite to try to set the terms of a 'debate' about them in order to assuage your own insecurity.

Original poster
OMG12 · 04/10/2023 19:16

BarrenBachelor · 04/10/2023 17:20

And who would want to be spending eternity with someone who is satisfied to believe such bullocks?

I suppose who would want to spend eternity with someone who can’t formulate any kind of informed argument- hopefully we will both get our wish

OP posts:
Original poster
OMG12 · 04/10/2023 19:20

BarrenBachelor · 04/10/2023 17:06

To speak of “atheists” as a group is mistaken in the first place: unlike members of religious groups, each of us has our own idiosyncratic logic and beliefs, and to assume there is a reason or set of reasons “we” don’t believe in gods is unwarranted. I can only speak for myself, and there may be some who agree with me, but it’s all very simple: You believe things because you need to believe them, and I see no reason to believe in gods. In former times I might have, especially if I were living in a society that tortured and killed nonbelievers (see the history of most major religions), but that is no longer the case. I am content to think of myself as a animal among other animals, doing what I need to do to survive and, I hope, flourish. I don’t deny that religion has influenced my ideas about morality and purpose, but I tend to think this has been less for the good and more to my detriment. That said, I have no problem with people who are very close to me believing in gods, just so long as they do not take their belief to some psychotic or murderous place (as more than a few do and have done). I have no interest in converting believers into atheists: many believers, I suspect, would behave in a sociopathic manner if they were persuaded that there is not a punishing, vengeful god waiting to call them to account should they indulge such behaviors.
Of course I am biased, but the bigger mystery to me is why such a large number of people continue to cling to religion (and to similar systems — e.g., therapy junkies, astrology buffs, etc.). But I would not be so impertinent as to come out and ask.

I don’t believe I grouped anyone together I asked people who were atheists for their opinion.

Like many you’re confusing gods and religion. It’s perfectly possible to have one without the other.

OP posts:
Yellowsubmarineunderthesea · 04/10/2023 21:35

.

DustSalad · 15/10/2023 20:19

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. I've been questioning things a lot recently. (Just turned 40). Sometimes I think it's more that I HATE God than that I don't believe in him.

It would be interesting to know how I would think if I had not been taught about Christianity from a young age by my mother. I don't say "brainwashed" as she didn't force it on me - my brother never went to church but obviously it's evolutionary to follow the teachings of one's mother, at least when one is young! Interestingly my dad has never been religious but encouraged me to go to church. Maybe thought it was good for me to be a bit sociable.

I do find it interesting how many folk find religion in prison or as part of their recovery from addiction.

I didn't find The God Delusion very helpful - I don't think evolution and God are mutually exclusive. I also think "yeah but who made God then" is a bit of a childish argument. But I have been reading "Godless" by Dan Barker (an ex Christian minister) and found some interesting ideas in that.

I'd like to know more about the evolutionary reasons for religion eg how it helps the tribe survive. It seems obvious to me now though that it's a great way to control people and make money. Opium for the masses and all that.

DustSalad · 15/10/2023 20:21

My nagging doubts though are "how did something come from nothing" and "yeah but WHY/HOW are there rules in the universe eg who or how was it "decided" or became the natural tendency to survive/breed/evolve?" In THIS universe at least.

DustSalad · 15/10/2023 20:45

I also like the idea of "Schrodinger's God" whereby God both does and doesn't exist because truth is not objective in all of the many universes which do and don't exist.

Londisc · 15/10/2023 22:57

You've said a lot of interesting things @DustSalad I think the first, and in my personal opinion the most important, question you should focus on (for yourself) is - "who" is God and why do you hate "him"? That's far more important in your life than trying to think about questions humanity is not yet able to address properly (e.g. how did something come from nothing? ). How would 'God' have come from nothing? What does nothing actually mean? Can humans actually truly conceive of that "nothing"? Why are we asking whether something could have come from "nothing" when we don't really know what "nothing" means?

The question you can find an answer for is : Who is God and why do you hate him?

Saschka · 15/10/2023 23:08

I don’t believe in a god for the same reason I don’t believe the world is propped up on a stack of turtles, or was sneezed into existence. If you don’t grow up believing biblical stories are real, it is hard to take them as 100% true and not just local mythology.

Londisc · 15/10/2023 23:12

To be fair I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested the bible stories are real (apologies if they have, the thread is 23 pages long).

Londisc · 15/10/2023 23:14

Of course, by 'real' I assume you mean "fact-checked".

Saschka · 16/10/2023 00:01

Londisc · 15/10/2023 23:12

To be fair I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested the bible stories are real (apologies if they have, the thread is 23 pages long).

I think most Christians think the whole crucifixion/rising from the dead/son of god part is real, don’t they? Or what is the point?

PorcelinaV · 18/10/2023 15:06

Ponderingwindow · 03/10/2023 19:29

I know there is no god because I reject the concept of worship.

I can’t rule out that there is a being that has something to do with my existence. I could be living in a Petri dish or inside a computer simulation and it would make no difference from my perspective. If there is a being that created the universe as we perceive it, that being isn’t a god, it’s just another being with a different set of technology.

There are no higher powers, all sentient beings are equal, even if some are more advanced in evolution or science.

So let's assume that theism is correct.

You think you are equal to a God that exists through its own nature, and sustains everything else in existence?

To me, it looks like a case that it wouldn't just be a bit more advanced than you, but it is rather on a completely different level.

Perhaps you still don't think it's deserving of worship, but it's more than a technological difference I think.

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