Page 24 | Atheists -what makes you so sure?

OMG12 · 2023-06-14T18:12:29+00:00

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things. Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

PorcelinaV · 19/10/2023 01:04

Notlaughingalot · 02/10/2023 11:09

I would like to think there is a god, but with zero evidence it becomes impossible.

I do think that there is more on the earth than humans are equipped to perceive however. I'm thinking about ghost sightings and paranormal activity.

But a god in the sense of some being answering prayers doesn't add up for me. I know it does for a lot of people though, and their belief helps them to get through what can be a really desperate life.

I think the paranormal is a potential argument against atheism/naturalism.

That is, for someone who has had their own experiences of the paranormal, and can also look at the testimony of others, (which people may be more inclined to take seriously if they have had their own experiences), then they can make the judgement...

Can these experiences be likely explained under naturalism, as natural but yet to be understood phenomena, or are they more plausibly explained under theism or pantheism or whatever?

Ponderingwindow · 19/10/2023 12:53

PorcelinaV · 18/10/2023 15:06

So let's assume that theism is correct.

You think you are equal to a God that exists through its own nature, and sustains everything else in existence?

To me, it looks like a case that it wouldn't just be a bit more advanced than you, but it is rather on a completely different level.

Perhaps you still don't think it's deserving of worship, but it's more than a technological difference I think.

Show quote history

Yes, I have conscious thought and the desire for self-determination. Whether you want to call it a difference of technology, evolution, dimensions, or use any other label, it really makes no difference.

I reject the very idea that anyone is better than another. Any sentient being has value.

if we are a computer simulation on some teenagers phone somewhere, we could be about to be deleted to make space for a new game and there is nothing we can do about it. I still wouldn’t call that teenager about to wipe me out a god. If I was trying to stop our demise, it wouldn’t be through prayer, it would be with a conversation.

These may seem like semantic differences, but they are not. Assigning the label of god and engaging in worship or prayer implies that we are less than another being. Our circumstances may be different, but our thoughts are just as valuable.

PorcelinaV · 19/10/2023 13:22

Ponderingwindow · 19/10/2023 12:53

Yes, I have conscious thought and the desire for self-determination. Whether you want to call it a difference of technology, evolution, dimensions, or use any other label, it really makes no difference.

I reject the very idea that anyone is better than another. Any sentient being has value.

if we are a computer simulation on some teenagers phone somewhere, we could be about to be deleted to make space for a new game and there is nothing we can do about it. I still wouldn’t call that teenager about to wipe me out a god. If I was trying to stop our demise, it wouldn’t be through prayer, it would be with a conversation.

These may seem like semantic differences, but they are not. Assigning the label of god and engaging in worship or prayer implies that we are less than another being. Our circumstances may be different, but our thoughts are just as valuable.

Show quote history

So you're an atheist, not because you actually deny God in the normal sense, but because you think you're equal to any God, and refuse to worship them.

CurlewKate · 19/10/2023 14:37

@PorcelinaV "That is, for someone who has had their own experiences of the paranormal, and can also look at the testimony of others, (which people may be more inclined to take seriously if they have had their own experiences), then they can make the judgement..."

I have had my own experiences-and have been able to explain them in rational ways. That is one of the reasons why I don't believe others' experiences.

Ponderingwindow · 19/10/2023 15:14

PorcelinaV · 19/10/2023 13:22

So you're an atheist, not because you actually deny God in the normal sense, but because you think you're equal to any God, and refuse to worship them.

Show quote history

Exactly.

I think it is critical that we consider ourselves equal to any other sentient being because it is the only way as a species that we will take real responsibility and solve our problems.

If we don’t manage to do it sooner than later, I fear we are headed for extinction.

Original poster

OMG12 · 19/10/2023 21:19

Ponderingwindow · 19/10/2023 15:14

Exactly.

I think it is critical that we consider ourselves equal to any other sentient being because it is the only way as a species that we will take real responsibility and solve our problems.

If we don’t manage to do it sooner than later, I fear we are headed for extinction.

Show quote history

your posts are really interesting, the idea of having a conversation rather than worship the idea of being a god are strands that run through occultism. They are not incompatible with a belief in god(s) in fact that would be more common. Do you see them as incompatible?

OP posts:

PorcelinaV · 20/10/2023 18:04

A number of people have mentioned psychological and sociological explanations for religious belief.

But that only means that people may be inclined towards religious belief regardless of its truth. That shouldn't give anyone confidence in atheism.

Or there is a link between the religious beliefs of parents and their children. Sure, but that can also apply to atheism.

Perhaps religious beliefs and atheist belief (or "lack of belief" whatever) are both largely non rational in practice.

So there can be various non rational factors that influence many people on both sides. This is a different question to whether something is true, or whether there is also a rational case available to support a position.

aSofaNearYou · 20/10/2023 19:48

PorcelinaV · 20/10/2023 18:04

A number of people have mentioned psychological and sociological explanations for religious belief.

But that only means that people may be inclined towards religious belief regardless of its truth. That shouldn't give anyone confidence in atheism.

Or there is a link between the religious beliefs of parents and their children. Sure, but that can also apply to atheism.

Perhaps religious beliefs and atheist belief (or "lack of belief" whatever) are both largely non rational in practice.

So there can be various non rational factors that influence many people on both sides. This is a different question to whether something is true, or whether there is also a rational case available to support a position.

It's more that when you take away the factor that many people do believe - which can be easily explained with psychological and sociological explanations as you say - it doesn't seem a logical or rational theory to me. The fact that so many believe is the strongest argument in its favour, but that can be so easily explained away.

Looking at the theory purely objectively and logically, I don't think it's likely.

Ponderingwindow · 21/10/2023 18:01

OMG12 · 19/10/2023 21:19

your posts are really interesting, the idea of having a conversation rather than worship the idea of being a god are strands that run through occultism. They are not incompatible with a belief in god(s) in fact that would be more common. Do you see them as incompatible?

Show quote history

I’m not sure exactly what you are asking. Do you mean things like Satanism? I find the Christian interpretation of Satan very confusing. Rather than the villain, Satan seems more equivalent to Prometheus from Greek mythology. In simple terms, both could be seen as heros who are punished for believing humans should have the knowledge of the gods and the right to self-determination.

Fire is not just fire, it is a symbol of all knowledge and the ability to create and destroy. Most religions seek to place these powers with the god(s), where I do believe they belong with humanity as well.

Fahbeep · 27/10/2023 17:48

I am an atheist. I can see that God and religion are human made anthropological manifestations of a desire to understand the universe and our place in it. I view the infinite scale of our universe with wonder and awe, but I don't need a creation myth to ground it. I can also see that we are inconsequential within the expanse. So we have to look after each other and our planet, because there is no God to do it for us.