Atheists -what makes you so sure?

[OMG12]

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

My eureka moment that it was all BS was randomly as an adult reading Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England, despite studying history at uni, it was the first time I realised oooohhhhhhhh it was the only way they could control society -women- at that time, and it all made sense. It's pessimism really, I would love to believe there is a higher meaning to all this, I understand how that gives people purpose, but just don't think there is. And organised religion is just the best and worst traits of mankind manifested, desperately rummaging around for control and meaning.

I’d think you were being metaphorical. Or batshit. But probably the former.

What do we know now that discounts the possibility of my invisible dragon?

I get that your position is that pretty much anything might be possible, but I don’t understand how that leads you to certainty of divinity.

I don't know whether most atheists feel this way. Maybe some do, clearly many vocal atheists are very angry at the idea of what they see as an inconsistent God.

I don't feel like that at all. I can understand the concept of God without it feeling unfair. I just still don't believe in it because out of all the possibilities it does not feel like a likely one to me.

And I don't feel like I'm missing out. I can't think of anything that belief in a god would give me that I can't already get from somewhere else. I feel connected to others via nature and human love. I get comfort from people (and animals ) that I love and who love me. I've done a lot of work to accept myself flaws and all. I can think of my own plans and direction.

Sorry, I didn't put that clearly. I mean that I don't think we can discount a god on the basis of the flaws in human-constructed religions. That's like looking at a 3 year old's drawing of its mother and concluding she really has sticks for limbs and a head like a potato.

I agree that it is reasonable to discount a god based on human-constructed scientific knowledge to date.

Sorry, I didn't put that clearly. I mean that I don't think we can discount a god on the basis of the flaws in human-constructed religions.

This is fair, and I personally don't call myself an atheist as I don't presume to fully know or disbelieve, however, I think the whole construct of a god just goes hand in hand with human nature, seeking purpose, boundaries etc, it's not the flaws in organised religion that fuels my disbelief in a god, but the knowledge of the desperation of human kind to need something. I can see how the concept of a god has developed, and think it's too convenient to the desire of man who doesn't want to feel "pointless".

Most religious people are also atheists to an extent.

By which I mean there are thousands of different gods that humans believe in. Most religious people believe in 1 god and denounce all others.

I just believe in one less god than religious people, and I do so for the same reason that they don't believe in all the other gods.

Earlier on, because I did exactly what you asked and explained why I’m atheist, you said I needed ‘healing’. So yes, I sound as angry as you want, but you have sounded like a nutter to me from your first response to me. Plus you literally liked a PP to justify that dragons don’t exist.

Another reason I don’t believe in god is that there are so many different opinions out there as to what god is, to me it can only be man made.

I also don’t believe in god because of the reasons other people believe in god. From people I’ve spoken to in my life, it often seems to stem from that person not being able to cope with the realities of life (eg death) in any other way. My mum believes in god because she believes her mum came to her after she died and told her death is nothing to be afraid of. My view here is that my mum simply had a dream.

You also refer earlier to interpreting the bible not as literal but was moral/metaphorical meanings. I can assure you that the bible was taught to me as a bunch of literal stories that actually happened at synagogue. I never believed them and I’m sad that children are brainwashed by whoever choose to interpret this work of fiction in any way they see fit.

@BertieBotts "Maybe some do, clearly many vocal atheists are very angry at the idea of what they see as an inconsistent God."

I don't think that atheists are angry about an inconsistent God-because they, by definition, don't believe in a god-consistent or otherwise. They are sometimes angry because of the way religion operates. But there are many people of faith who feel that way too.

My friend and her mum prayed so hard that my friend’s brother wouldn’t die. He died. If this happened to you would this shake your faith?

This was supposed to quote another post. I’ll try again. The quote function is so counterintuitive.

My friend and her mum prayed so hard that my friend’s brother wouldn’t die. He died. If this happened to you would this shake your faith?

@Yahyahs22

Of course. I had a very spiritual encounter that I personally couldn't deny. It led me to the Bible and all of a sudden it looked and felt so different to me. Since then, every single prayer I've prayed has been answered. And I'm not talking about 'please give me more money' and material things like that. I mean, please give me a child and the next week I found out I was pregnant type prayers. For me now, it's very apparent.

How do you square that with the people who have total belief in their faith, pray desperately for their child to survive an illness only for their child to still die? Why did god answer your prayer and not theirs? If he / she has the power to answer them, why does he allow children to be born with horrific and painful conditions?

If people say 'well, free will' / 'god won't interfere' etc when questioned about the pain and suffering in the world then it seems illogical for them to then attribute fertility issues being fixed, illnesses being cured, other prayers being granted.

Surely he / she either can intervene to help people or can't. And if he / she can... why not do so?

@monsteramunch God loves her more? 😬🤷‍♀️

I don’t really know anything about your dragon but I’m quite happy with the possibility it exists.

Im not 100% certain a divinity exists, having done a lot of searching my beliefs are what makes sense to me. But I’m not certain that what I believe objectively exists. That’s impossible to know I’m pretty confident it exists for me because that’s what feels right. They might be wrong for everyone else and just exist for me or might not exist for anyone. I’d be a fool to think otherwise. In any case I don’t think anyone else has to join in my way of thinking

Your dragon might objectively exist or only exist for you, but that wouldn’t make it any less real

Im not 100% certain a divinity exists, having done a lot of searching my beliefs are what makes sense to me.

Would you describe yourself as agnostic then? As you're not 100% sure? Sorry if you've already answered that.

Well I don’t think you need “healing” from your atheism, you just sound incredibly angry, that’s not good for anyone really is it. Your initial post sounded angry too.

How the Bible was taught to you isn’t really my concern, that’s a function of that religion/rabbi. As I’ve stated, I wasn’t asking for opinions on religions.

Im not really sure what you’re referring to “Plus you literally liked a PP to justify that dragons don’t exist.” I’m quite happy to accept (as actually mentioned above) dragons might exist.

Now I could take offence at your repeated use of the word “nutter”, I assume you think about people with mental health problems more broadly in a derogatory way? Do you struggle more broadly with empathy?

Yes, i think we are nearly all on a sliding scale of agnosticism (obviously some people will be 100% sure, I understand what makes believers feel 100% sure) but I struggle at the other end - possibly because I’m over the 50% marker and my brain works in a similar way to those believers).

I think the agnostic/atheist thing is used by some people (nobody on here, of course) as a sort of "gotcha" and a distraction. Technically, it's impossible to be an atheist. Just as it's equally impossible to know 100% that there is a god, it's impossible to know 100% that there isn't. I call myself an atheist but of course I accept that something might happen tomorrow that shows me that there is a God. It won't, of course, but the possibility exists. I don't call myself an agnostic because in popular usage the word implies that I'm open to being convinced on current evidence. I'm not. Something new would have to happen. So I use atheist as a shorthand. Richard Dawkins calls himself an agnostic, by the way.

It's the sliding scale of agnosticism that makes me call myself an atheist. If I'm up at the needing 100% incontrovertible proof end of the spectrum I don't want to be in the same category as people who find a white feather in the street and interpret it as evidence of divine intervention or protection.

But what makes you reject the premise that the white feather is a sign?

Yes, i think we are nearly all on a sliding scale of agnosticism (obviously some people will be 100% sure, I understand what makes believers feel 100% sure) but I struggle at the other end - possibly because I’m over the 50% marker and my brain works in a similar way to those believers).

Well surely that just suggests you lack empathy, then? If you understand one bit can't fathom the other end having a similar level of conviction?

Even trying my best to be objective, I'm struggling to understand why it would be easier to understand people being 100% convinced by something there is no evidence of, than 100% convinced something there is no evidence of does NOT exist. Either could theoretically be proven wrong, of course. But the latter is much easier to comprehend. They are 100% convinced because the amount of evidence is 0%. Surely that is obvious? Surely that is easier to make sense of than being 100% convinced about something there is no evidence of?

@OMG12 What do you want from this thread?

To brag about how spiritual and deep and well-read they are while shitting on those horrible coledatheists.

OP if you look up ‘religion’ in the dictionary, it says ‘the belief in and worship of a god/gods’.

Religion and god do go and in hand, but you seem to be denying this, and people’s valid reasons for not believing in god due to its association to religion.

And dragons don’t exist. They are a work of fiction. Much like the bible and god.