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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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User63847484848 · 06/05/2023 21:41

If it hadn’t been mentioned already I would really recommend the podcast I was a Teenage Fundamentalist
based in Australia but lots of Uk listeners too
lots of discussion about all this sort of stuff and it struck so many chords with me

LotsOfBalloons · 07/05/2023 03:54

You see I always used to think I wasn't a fundamentalist like those Amercians/ cults etc. We all used to pride ourselves on accepting all (but hmm with conditions and certainly not all) and being informal and without strict rules (hmmmm) . Its actually messes with your mind doesn't it - said one thing but did another.

And now I'm not so sure...

LotsOfBalloons · 07/05/2023 03:55

I wanted "And everything burns" about actual fundamentalists but it did also hit a cord!

User63847484848 · 07/05/2023 08:20

Give it a listen, one of my favourite episodes was called ‘God told me to marry you’ 🤣
sometimes it’s heavy but it’s also a light humourous look at that church culture, particularly the youth side. Things like the Hillsong leader apparently asking all the less attractive singers to be moved to the back 🙄
and lots of interesting guests sharing their own stories

LotsOfBalloons · 07/05/2023 10:21

Oh good lord I'd forgotten all the angst around marriage and dating. How to make life difficult for teens...and early marriages doomed.

LotsOfBalloons · 07/05/2023 10:23

I had no idea hillsongs did that! However my favourite episode of Rev (which I loved and was timely for me) is the episode with thr HTB gang and the milkshake bar and all the attractive teens brought in. So accurate.

(BTW did anyone watch Fleabag. I totally fell for the hot priest and his kneel... and wondered if my ex Christian baggage intensified it!)

NotEspeciallyHappyValley · 07/05/2023 11:35

I’m actually secretly quite impressed that our church went one further than Hillsong! I wasn’t just moved to the back of the the singers - I was moved to operate the OHP slides because ‘god calls us all to serve in different ways’
In hindsight it wasn’t healthy and I am so pleased I eventually fell in with the much more liberal SCM bunch at uni -which is probably why my faith has evolved and remained rather than leaving me. For a start they met on a Thursday evening not a Saturday night and their idea of a good time afterwards was a trip to the pub rather than a prayer walk around the city

And don’t get me started on their hang ups on sex and sexuality. We had talk after talk on the ‘relationships revolution’ which consisted of smug married couples in their early 20s telling us we could have 24/7 sex once married but before then holding hands was pretty much the limit. I was actually thrown out (well asked to leave….) the Christian Union because my housemate reported me for pre-marital sex!

LotsOfBalloons · 07/05/2023 12:03

I remember being absolutely shocked when a CU halls leader I knew was having sex with her partner. And thought she should step down. It was so ingrained in us.

Also had the smug 20s telling us to keep our distnace/door always open etc. It mattered SO much we were seen to be pure as well as not wanting to somehow fail God when ultimately serving him was our goal on earth therefore why would you knowingly do wrong...

Reallybadidea · 07/05/2023 12:52

LotsOfBalloons · 07/05/2023 10:23

I had no idea hillsongs did that! However my favourite episode of Rev (which I loved and was timely for me) is the episode with thr HTB gang and the milkshake bar and all the attractive teens brought in. So accurate.

(BTW did anyone watch Fleabag. I totally fell for the hot priest and his kneel... and wondered if my ex Christian baggage intensified it!)

I loved Rev. So funny and clever.

Yy to the relationship angst. One of my friends truly believed that whilst 'slain in the spirit' at SS, God had told her that he wanted her to marry one of our youth leaders 🤣 Problem was that he was already going out with a mutual friend of ours (who was 16 - so messed up). Oh the drama when she told everyone!

God changed his mind about that though so she married someone elseHmm

anywitchway · 07/05/2023 13:01

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

woodhill · 07/05/2023 13:20

NotEspeciallyHappyValley · 07/05/2023 11:35

I’m actually secretly quite impressed that our church went one further than Hillsong! I wasn’t just moved to the back of the the singers - I was moved to operate the OHP slides because ‘god calls us all to serve in different ways’
In hindsight it wasn’t healthy and I am so pleased I eventually fell in with the much more liberal SCM bunch at uni -which is probably why my faith has evolved and remained rather than leaving me. For a start they met on a Thursday evening not a Saturday night and their idea of a good time afterwards was a trip to the pub rather than a prayer walk around the city

And don’t get me started on their hang ups on sex and sexuality. We had talk after talk on the ‘relationships revolution’ which consisted of smug married couples in their early 20s telling us we could have 24/7 sex once married but before then holding hands was pretty much the limit. I was actually thrown out (well asked to leave….) the Christian Union because my housemate reported me for pre-marital sex!

Oh I know

Obsessed about sex before marriage etc. I told my own dc it was fine but they had been brainwashed by the youth leaders. Up to them

woodhill · 07/05/2023 13:21

And the dreaded Joyce Hugget books

My friends and I used to have hysterics over them

OnSusansFloor · 07/05/2023 13:43

Wow. My parents are, I suppose, evangelical Christian, in the sense that they're missionaries - so evangelising is part of their package IYSWIM. But they were always verrry sceptical of these very charismatic, cult-of-personality type churches when I was growing up. I remember being mortified when we visited the local church on holiday which happened to be charismatic - people started speaking in tongues and falling over, and my family got up and walked out.
As a 14/15yo I resented having to go to our smallish, fairly staid (admittedly also imperfect) Baptist church and not being able to join my friends who were having all kinds of exciting "spiritual experiences" in the big church in town, but as I got older I've been grateful that they protected me from what I know realise was mostly emotional manipulation.
In my late teens they gave my siblings and me more freedom to attend events like SS but talked in very pragmatic terms about how lighting and music and preaching cadence could be curated to evoke particular emotions, which meant that I always had my guard up a little bit and questioned why the lights were being dimmed just at that point or the worship leader had chosen one word over another in his altar call. So I'm disappointed to hear about Mike P, but not especially surprised.
FWIW I'm still a practising Christian, not because of any pastor or song or worship leader, but because I think the gospel message of Christ, and his personhood/Deity, are factually true. But I wouldn't set foot in one of those mega-churches or charismatic worship festivals.

OnSusansFloor · 07/05/2023 13:52

@herlightmaterials @Spck I hadn't heard about Ravi Zacharias! Just read some of the reports and I'm devastated. He had a huge (positive) impact on my spiritual life.

herlightmaterials · 07/05/2023 14:44

OnSusansFloor · 07/05/2023 13:52

@herlightmaterials @Spck I hadn't heard about Ravi Zacharias! Just read some of the reports and I'm devastated. He had a huge (positive) impact on my spiritual life.

I know. I know.

emmeline8228 · 07/05/2023 16:53

I have found that this news about Mike Pilavachi has dragged up a lot of anger from my childhood about being involved in these events. And it's not just the events, its the churches that support this type of 'ministry'. You don't have to look to far to find these sort of coercive stories from many different "churches" who believe the same messages. I feel so frustrated as there is so much of it out there and so many people who will be drawn in thinking that they have found something to believe in, to live for, a place to belong. My sister and I went to a "home group" at a church. The elders were brought in to prophesise. The teens were told to sit in the middle of a circle and they would be prophesied over. She was told she had the devil in her. What a thing to tell a 13 year old! We were told to beware of Pokemon because the devil was using them to warp children's minds away from God. I mean, what!!!!!!? It's so dangerous!!! Why is it all explained away!? This is so wrong. The church covers up what they don't want the general public to hear. More people need to speak out about this sort of thing. Does anyone know of any podcasts that are actually discussing Soul Survivor and the Mike Pilavachi case?

LolaSmiles · 07/05/2023 17:02

As someone who was very involved in the evangelical movement as a teen I am sadly not surprised. Not I hasten to add because I have any knowledge of Soul Survivor (I never went) - but because of the way these organisations seem to promote the cult of the individual and operate in almost quasi-independence of the usual church structures. There was an almost hero-worship of those individuals. I remember a church trip to Chorleywood (where Soul Survivor came from) and it was like meeting The Beatles or similar. The excitement was about meeting those people. Looking back it doesn’t seem very healthy.
I did go to Soul Survivor and remember feeling unsettled by it. It shaped my spiritual development but not in a positive or healthy way.
I remember one session where lots of people were hysterical and I stood there thinking I'd entered another planet.
As an adult I've often looked back and thought some of it, especially the big worship with Mike Pilavachi being on a pedestal, was quite manipulative.

LotsOfBalloons · 07/05/2023 17:49

All the big worship leaders were really weren't they. Maybe unintentionally.

And the whole subset of Christianity was like it - not just a rogue church.

DistantConstellation · 07/05/2023 21:58

@OnSusansFloor really interesting post. Great that your parents were on guard for that. Never ever had that sort of insight.

BadSkiingMum · 07/05/2023 23:13

Has anyone had disconcerting experiences with the Elim group of churches?

Sameynamey · 08/05/2023 00:27

Relieved to see this thread. I raised concerns about MP and soul survivor in 2002. There was a core group of charismatic leaders, young trendy types. Money obsessed and treated like pop stars by vulnerable teenagers. HTB is linked closely isn’t it? I was bullied for speaking out and no longer consider myself a Christian. Sorry for being vague but worried about retribution. MR and that circle need investigating too.

Sameynamey · 08/05/2023 02:14

Looks like financial irregularities too..

ethicalcustard.blogspot.com/2023/05/the-odd-lines-of-accountability-for.html

vdbfamily · 08/05/2023 11:02

OnSusansFloor · 07/05/2023 13:43

Wow. My parents are, I suppose, evangelical Christian, in the sense that they're missionaries - so evangelising is part of their package IYSWIM. But they were always verrry sceptical of these very charismatic, cult-of-personality type churches when I was growing up. I remember being mortified when we visited the local church on holiday which happened to be charismatic - people started speaking in tongues and falling over, and my family got up and walked out.
As a 14/15yo I resented having to go to our smallish, fairly staid (admittedly also imperfect) Baptist church and not being able to join my friends who were having all kinds of exciting "spiritual experiences" in the big church in town, but as I got older I've been grateful that they protected me from what I know realise was mostly emotional manipulation.
In my late teens they gave my siblings and me more freedom to attend events like SS but talked in very pragmatic terms about how lighting and music and preaching cadence could be curated to evoke particular emotions, which meant that I always had my guard up a little bit and questioned why the lights were being dimmed just at that point or the worship leader had chosen one word over another in his altar call. So I'm disappointed to hear about Mike P, but not especially surprised.
FWIW I'm still a practising Christian, not because of any pastor or song or worship leader, but because I think the gospel message of Christ, and his personhood/Deity, are factually true. But I wouldn't set foot in one of those mega-churches or charismatic worship festivals.

This pretty much mirrors my experience. My parents always suggested caution around these hyped up events and having left the Plymouth Brethren they were also extremely wary of any type of personality cult. I consequently tend to run a mile from anything that puts any one person on a pedestal. Anything we do as Christians should be pointing to Christ and any leader with a big ego is dangerous.
Interesting in our family that 2 of my brothers went to SS every year and 2 of us avoided it.
My teen-agers are not Christians but when they have been with their cousins to these sort of events they have come home very unconvinced with the goings on and have felt it has been manipulative.

woodhill · 08/05/2023 17:09

BadSkiingMum · 07/05/2023 23:13

Has anyone had disconcerting experiences with the Elim group of churches?

I did go to KT in the 80s and it was fine.

They did have Benny Hinn to visit, he seemed like a fortune teller almost