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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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42
herlightmaterials · 18/04/2023 08:47

vdbfamily · 17/04/2023 19:47

In regards to last 2 messages, I accept that it looks like something inappropriate to his position may have taken place and yes, church leaders have to hold themselves to very high standards as they are in positions of authority over others AND preaching morality.
I would expect the church to investigate thoroughly and the publicity in itself will ensure that if it was a repeat behaviour, others are likely to come forward. If it was a one off, he will need to take appropriate action to put things right.
However, writing him off and his whole ministry on the basis of this.....I would like to think that Jesus himselfs words, " let he who is without sin cast the first stone" would be a good measure, and if you all stand in 100% perfection for your whole lives, then criticize away.
I personally am thankful that the master I follow is loving and forgiving and says" go, and sin no more" ❤️

What you're saying is totally unbiblical. There are very high standards for leadership and there are heavy consequences for hypocrisy, wickedness masquerading as something good. Heavier penalties still for anyone who oppresses or assaults the vulnerable, particularly under the guise of faith. Forgiveness is one thing and yes it's biblical (although your What a pity this is happening to him attitude is not reflective of the gravity of what's happened for the victims), getting anywhere near a position of power again is something else entirely.

BadSkiingMum · 18/04/2023 09:03

I have a lot of concerns about evangelical and pentecostal churches. A close family member is heavily involved in one.

Much more to say, but in general I think that churches should not be allowed to evangelise to or accept donations from children/young people under 18. I also think there should be some safeguards around young people who are under 21 and in full-time education, so that churches cannot recruit on university campuses.

My relative ended up giving a good sum of money to an evangelical church while she was an undergraduate student and had no independent income of her own.

carbonarya · 18/04/2023 13:49

vdbfamily · 16/04/2023 23:44

It is very sad. He is very inspiring to listen to and had done a lot of good with his life and helped a huge number of people on their faith journey. It says that whatever happened was not criminal which is why I assume he has not been suspended, so I assume it may be actions the church would not approve of and want to look into, but probably stuff that non church goers might not have such an issue with.
I have family at his church and it is deeply upsetting for all concerned.

He's the founder of a youth festival who sent inappropriate messages. He does not sound like a good person.

Coffeeandcards · 18/04/2023 14:33

Also just cos I’ve seen it referenced twice (and normally the mistake would happen the other way so i can totally see why it’s been misread) the allegations cited are about inappropriate MASSAGES, not messages.

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carbonarya · 18/04/2023 14:50

Coffeeandcards · 18/04/2023 14:33

Also just cos I’ve seen it referenced twice (and normally the mistake would happen the other way so i can totally see why it’s been misread) the allegations cited are about inappropriate MASSAGES, not messages.

Oh shit, how did I miss that? That's even worse.

Catinabeanbag · 18/04/2023 22:22

I've been to both soul survivor and new wine (as well as spring harvest), and at the time, thought Pilavachi was a decent speaker. However that was getting on for 30 years ago and I no longer move in evo charismatic circles.
Tbh, I'm suprised something like this hasn't come out sooner, given that it's happened in pretty much every other area / denomination of the church.

Coffeeandcards · 18/04/2023 22:53

I don’t know if he’s done what the Telegraph are saying.

I do know the power dynamics in these sorts of christian circles often elevate these men to such a powerful status that no-one can question them. Add that to the “godly” characteristics of forgiveness, loyalty etc and there’s so much potential for abuse of power.

I hope news of this investigation travels as far as it needs to and that anyone who needs to come forward gets the chance to.

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NotEspeciallyHappyValley · 29/04/2023 11:11

The latest updates is that the statements have removed the wording ‘non-recent’ because it seems that some of the allegations were not historical but recent.

As someone who was involved in a very similar church in my teens - and who idolised Soul Survivor and their team I’m finding this has hit me and my faith rather hard

anywitchway · 29/04/2023 11:46

I was heavily involved in Evangelical circles when I was much younger and I went to Soul Survivor and heard him speak. I was shocked to hear about this.

I agree with people that there's almost a culture of "hero worship" around popular pastors, worship leaders and speakers which causes me a lot of concern.

BrassicaBabe · 29/04/2023 18:40

A flip view... maybe he hasn't done anything wrong but has to step back while allegations are investigated? None of the organisations or people involved CSN comment and the investigation must follow process for everyone involved

BrassicaBabe · 29/04/2023 19:25

*can comment

bossonext · 29/04/2023 20:17

BrassicaBabe · 29/04/2023 18:40

A flip view... maybe he hasn't done anything wrong but has to step back while allegations are investigated? None of the organisations or people involved CSN comment and the investigation must follow process for everyone involved

Yeah sure 🙄

Coffeeandcards · 02/05/2023 08:23

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/01/soul-survivor-church-of-england-rev-canon-pilavachi/

Victims of a Christian youth festival founder have spoken out for the first time claiming he ran “a cult” in which young men were encouraged to receive full-body massages on his bed and engage in wrestling matches.

The Rev Canon Mike Pilavachi, a 65-year-old charismatic evangelist, founded the Soul Survivor Watford church and its annual summer festivals, which ran from 1993 to 2019, and had an average attendance of 30,000 teenagers from around the world each summer.

At the beginning of April 2023, it emerged that he was stepping back from Church of England ministry amid an ongoing internal investigation and following allegations revealed by The Telegraph detailing how he formed inappropriate intimate relationships with young people.

Now, speaking exclusively to The Telegraph, his alleged victims and former Soul Survivor staff members have come forward to speak out for the first time about how he has “left a trail of broken, young male adults scattered all around the world”.

Furthermore, they claim that Rev Canon Pilavachi’s “toxic behaviour” and “horrible cruelty and obsession” with certain young men was an “open secret” within the organisation, but that nothing was done.

One alleged victim said that “were it not for its affiliation with the Anglican Church, Soul Survivor might fit the definition of a cult or a sect. It operates around the figurehead of Mike – he’s a bit like a cult leader.

“Everyone tries to copy the way he speaks in tongues and has prophetic images. It's all in Mike’s image in many, many ways. People speak and act in a very similar way to Mike and to one another. Those who don’t aren't part of the in-crowd.”

Many of the alleged victims first encountered Rev Canon Pilavachi through his church’s gap-year programme, Soul Time, now known as Soul61. Some became either his official or unofficial interns, and described him as a magnetic and “powerful” man with “a direct dial to God” who could determine their future within the church.

Yet, they also claim that in hindsight that they were part of a “conveyor belt” of young, athletic, attractive men, usually around 18 to 21 from broken homes or with traumatic childhoods who were preyed upon and made to feel “special” by their celibate vicar who they say led them to believe he held the key to their careers, happiness and futures.

Speaking out years later, the whistleblowers told how such young men would often be subject to nicknames, such as: “Pilly boys”, “Mike’s boys”, or “Mike’s favourites” within the upper echelons of the Soul Survivor circles. A number also claim that they were encouraged to receive full-body oil massages in their underwear while being straddled by Rev Canon Pilavachi in his bedroom, as well as vigorous wrestling matches that could last as long as 20 minutes at a time – sometimes in church.

'Psychological torment'They also claim that they suffered psychological torment as he would shower them with attention and promises of a prestigious life in ministry, travelling the world alongside him to exotic destinations on mission trips, or the chance to preach and play music on stage – only to be “ignored”, “dropped”, “gaslit” and “ghosted”.

One alleged victim said he was around 18 or 19 when Rev Canon Pilavachi, who was then in his 40s, told him he was learning massage and needed to practise. He claimed that he then received a full-body oil massage in his underwear while lying on his vicar’s bed.

“I was obviously never going to say no because I had been specially chosen by Mike,” he said. “I didn't want to do anything that would jeopardise our new relationship… I think it’s safe to say the massages went too far up the inner thigh. He was an idol of mine. Who was I to question him? I was like putty in his hands, really.”

Alleged victims also told how Rev Canon Pilavachi would encourage long wrestling matches which made them uncomfortable, but were “normalised by other role models who wrestled with Mike”.

Meanwhile, former staff members claimed that the vicar’s behaviour was well-known within Soul Survivor, with one saying she first became aware around 2003. She recalled one instance in which senior religious leaders “wanted to talk to Mike about optics” regarding his relationships with young men, and another in which he was “being spoken to about needing to make the effort to have more adult relationships”. However, she was not made aware of the outcome of such meetings.

Victims of Christian ‘cult’ leader speak out for first time

Young men say they were encouraged to receive full-body massages on Rev Canon Mike Pilavachi’s bed and engage in wrestling matches

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/01/soul-survivor-church-of-england-rev-canon-pilavachi/

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Coffeeandcards · 02/05/2023 08:25

The abuse of power here is nauseating. And now we hear it was “an open secret” in SS / CofE inner circles.

Jesus wept.

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NotEspeciallyHappyValley · 02/05/2023 10:40

Again - why am I not surprised

And I wonder what Soul Survivor preached from the pulpit about homosexuality……?

thekindlyone · 02/05/2023 13:08

No doubt @vdbfamily will be along in a second to defend scumbag. Although I'm guessing she'll think homosexuality is the issue and not the abuse of power.

BadSkiingMum · 02/05/2023 15:05

Horrific, and also utterly offensive to use what should be religious activities (preaching trips, no doubt funded by donations) as a lure to draw in young men.

I have long suspected that the audience/stardom factor is a big draw for some preachers. It is literally ‘worship’ after all.

vdbfamily · 02/05/2023 15:20

thekindlyone · 02/05/2023 13:08

No doubt @vdbfamily will be along in a second to defend scumbag. Although I'm guessing she'll think homosexuality is the issue and not the abuse of power.

Absolutely indefensible. I am horrified and mortified on behalf of those young men. I had never heard any rumours at all, however having since chatted to my daughter, she had not liked him when she went to Soul Survivor and had sensed an inappropriateness in how he spoke about some issues.
I have to apologize and say when I first read about this, I interpreted what I read as Mike himself going off somewhere to pay for inappropriate massages which is very different to what has emerged.
I agree that this mixture of religious power with inappropriate sexual behaviour is very toxic and can / does ruin the lives of young impressionable people.
Apologies again for attempting to defend him. I do believe in a God of forgiveness but also believe that we take responsibility for our actions and I am massively disappointed that any of this had been covered up as I had hoped lessons had been well learned in Anglican church and thought safeguarding was quite rigorous.

Coffeeandcards · 02/05/2023 16:48

Fair play to you for that @vdbfamily 👏

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WordtoYoMumma · 02/05/2023 17:01

I went to Soul Survivor as a young person a couple of times. I definitely recognise the bizarre celebrity status that these preachers are given, it always felt very "worshipping false idols" to me.

The first time I went it was with friends from the Christian Union at university and I was struck by how cult like and brain washy it all was.

What is weird is that I haven't been part of the evangelical church for decades now, but when I heard about this my first thought was "Mike Pilavachi! I know him!" Then I had to check myself cos I don't know him at all. But the name still has a weird celebrity status somewhere in my subconscious. Along with Steve Chalk, Nicky Gumbel and Billy Graham...

Sadly I'm not surprised about these revelations. Evangelical Christianity preys on vulnerable people who need to believe they are chosen and worthy.

Catinabeanbag · 02/05/2023 18:51

NotEspeciallyHappyValley · 02/05/2023 10:40

Again - why am I not surprised

And I wonder what Soul Survivor preached from the pulpit about homosexuality……?

Yeah.... three guesses......

BadSkiingMum · 02/05/2023 20:28

This paragraph really bothers me:

'Meanwhile, former staff members claimed that the vicar’s behaviour was well-known within Soul Survivor, with one saying she first became aware around 2003. She recalled one instance in which senior religious leaders “wanted to talk to Mike about optics” regarding his relationships with young men, and another in which he was “being spoken to about needing to make the effort to have more adult relationships”. However, she was not made aware of the outcome of such meetings.'

It was known, or something was known. Although the full responsibility rests with Pilavachi, why wasn't it investigated until now?

BadSkiingMum · 02/05/2023 20:38

I have seen with my own eyes some of the bizarre, sycophantic behaviour that can occur even within an ordinary evangelical church setting, during the 'anyone can speak' segment of proceedings.

Just put yourself in the mindset of a preacher, standing up on the stage with your microphone, chord sequences being played softly in the background. Someone (perhaps an attractive young person) leaps to their feet in a state of emotion, saying how grateful they are for your preaching, that your very own words are leading them closer to God. How long before you start to believe this? How long before you start to feel tempted to exploit this?

Now in most pastors it probably goes no further than an over-inflated sense of their own importance and willing acceptance of 'volunteers' who are desperate to donate time, money and baked-goods to the church. But the risk factors for exploitation are huge.

elliejjtiny · 02/05/2023 20:44

I went to would survivor 3 times and new wine 8 times including working there 4 times. I'm shocked at this to be honest and I don't know what to think.

DistantConstellation · 02/05/2023 21:49

NotEspeciallyHappyValley · 02/05/2023 10:40

Again - why am I not surprised

And I wonder what Soul Survivor preached from the pulpit about homosexuality……?

Can you elaborate? What was SS's view? I don't recall it being a focus when I was there but it was a long time ago.