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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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42
BadSkiingMum · 08/05/2023 20:56

What is KT - is that the flagship church in London?

woodhill · 08/05/2023 21:48

Kensington Temple - sorry

Sameynamey · 09/05/2023 21:13

Interesting who has made a statement and who hasn’t. I see a few from the inner circle are pretending this is not happening.

LolaSmiles · 09/05/2023 21:32

Have these statements been made to the press and widely reported or is it something you've had to dig to find?

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:02

Hello, I'm a n00b here. I recently heard about the Mike Pilavachi scandal, and have read around it quite a lot. This has been a very interesting discussion and I wanted to join in, as I feel a need to interact with other humans on it, and I'm impressed by the range of opinions and experiences here.

Warning - this will probably be long.

I'm 48, and when I was 15, I became a Christian through a friend inviting me to an evangelistic event at his church - the pretty well-known vicar Steve Chalke was the leader of it. I'd come from a completely non-religious background, but at the time I was very unhappy at the brutal all-boys grammar I went to, as I didn't fit in at all, and my home life wasn't great as my parents had continual money problems and my sister had catastrophic mental health problems. A bunch of really friendly and kind people in a church, who had a sense of purpose and who talked about big issues, really appealed to me.

Anyway, said church was pretty typical and ordinary, but before long I got involved with more charismatic stuff, originally through a youth event once a month at a local leisure centre. It was arranged by Pioneer, a group of charismatic churches, and worship was regularly led by big names of the day like Noel Richards and Sue Rinaldi. It was exactly the sort of thing that has been mentioned here - personality cults developing around the leaders, a huge sense of expectation, and the music and lighting creating a very manipulative environment.

I ended up going to a big youth event called Yes '91 in the summer of...errr...1991. This was a one-off to the best of my knowledge, with loads of Christian organisations taking part, but it was very similar to what the Soul Survivor festival would become. It led directly to me doing a year out with Pioneer TIE Teams (now known as DNA) from 1992 to 1993. Megachurches in the UK didn't really exist at the time, but I was in a church that was extremely charismatic and had very full-on meetings, with spiritual gifts, prophecy, healings...you name it.

To cut a very long story slightly shorter, I thought it was all fantastic at the time, but it was only many years later that I realised it completely f*ed me up. It made me brutally uncompromising, ripped my self-image to shreds, made me take myself and my life far too seriously, made me interfere with people's lives and judge them very harshly, made me constantly try to convert people, gave me some very messed up ideas about sex, sexuality and gender roles...you name it. Once all this dawned on me, I realised I'd need a shedload of therapy to sort me out, and it's been a miserable and difficult business trying to deprogram myself. I got into a cult, basically. I wasted the best years of my life on this crap. I spent years miserably going to church week after week until I finally plucked up courage to stop going about 9 years ago.

It didn't surprise me at all when I heard the story about Pilavachi. As others have said, abuse within really uncompromising charismatic evangelicalism isn't a bug, it's a feature. These people spend years building up trust and status and structures that they then go on to relentlessly abuse, safe in the knowledge that victims will either be too scared to report it, or not believed if they do.

The vicar of a church I attended for ten years was recently outed as having abused young men in a very similar way to Pilavachi, and boy, do I feel a mug for giving 10% of my income to them for a decade. To say I'm angry is something of an understatement.

I did some youth work just before I finally left church, and that was pretty much the last straw for me - I realised I was being made to teach teenagers things I felt uncomfortable with, and the church youth worker was a very big believer in Soul Survivor. One of my kids went one year, which I was very uncomfortable about, but thankfully returned apparently unscathed by the experience. There is absolutely no way Soul Survivor could be accurately termed a "festival" - it's essentially a cult recruitment process using some extremely devious and underhand methods that can do enormous damage to idealistic and passionate kids who can't see through what's going on.

I hope the fall of Pilavachi might result in more people speaking out about the damage charismatic evangelicalism can do to impressionable young people. I feel really sorry for people who are seeing their beliefs and ideals crumble around them as they come to terms with this - it's a very big deal for them and a tough thing to process. I think that some of the events and year-out programmes aimed at teens are horrifically dangerous, and need much, much closer regulation and vetting. This sort of thing will happen again and again, leaving multiple victims in its wake, until something decisive is done.

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:10

woodhill · 07/05/2023 13:21

And the dreaded Joyce Hugget books

My friends and I used to have hysterics over them

Joyce Don't-Hug-It. :)

woodhill · 09/05/2023 22:13

Exactly

Somebodiesmother · 09/05/2023 22:17

Sameynamey · 09/05/2023 21:13

Interesting who has made a statement and who hasn’t. I see a few from the inner circle are pretending this is not happening.

Matt Redmans statement seems ambiguous enough to be not particularly ambiguous at all. Especially considering he helped Mike set up Soul Survivor when he was 19

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:18

You have to wonder what Redman knows, and also how much he's trying to protect his career and ministry. He's potentially in some very hot water here.

Somebodiesmother · 09/05/2023 22:20

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:18

You have to wonder what Redman knows, and also how much he's trying to protect his career and ministry. He's potentially in some very hot water here.

I think he's more likely to have been a victim than a perpetrator.

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:21

Somebodiesmother · 09/05/2023 22:20

I think he's more likely to have been a victim than a perpetrator.

Possibly, I guess we won't know for some time yet. He was certainly very young when SS was first set up.

Sameynamey · 09/05/2023 22:23

I was wondering if Matt Redman was a victim but shame on him if he cleared off to USA rather than doing anything.

LolaSmiles · 09/05/2023 22:23

I think he's more likely to have been a victim than a perpetrator
That's what I took from his statement.

Reading the blogs someone linked to up thread suggests that MP managed to create organisations staffed with many of the young people/interns he liked and developed systems where accountability was difficult to establish as he seemed to have a role of authority over most people in the roles who he'd have ordinarily been accountable to.

LotsOfBalloons · 09/05/2023 22:24

Wow primative that echos so many of my thoughts.

And yes to the therapy but some therapists are Christian (especially the ones with reduced rates) and then you find them either - Christian and you feel bad dissing the whole set up or not Christian and haven't a clue why you persevered with the church and how all encompassing it was

Primative I really found your post.helpful thinking about the huge knock on effect on self esteem and relationships and such intensity at always scrutinising life and if it measured up to God's will or path .

It is a bit like recovering from an abusive relationship- and Also the way it makes you question so much.

LotsOfBalloons · 09/05/2023 22:25

Mp used to proudly talk about how he found MR in a bad place and mentored him and look at him now...

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:26

LolaSmiles · 09/05/2023 22:23

I think he's more likely to have been a victim than a perpetrator
That's what I took from his statement.

Reading the blogs someone linked to up thread suggests that MP managed to create organisations staffed with many of the young people/interns he liked and developed systems where accountability was difficult to establish as he seemed to have a role of authority over most people in the roles who he'd have ordinarily been accountable to.

This is actually a major problem in the Church of England - there's so many different forms of belief in it, that there's provision for all sorts of alternative oversight of churches, and it's possible for those that know what they're doing to carve independent fiefdoms out of it, without any senior clergy really knowing what's going on. It seems to be exactly what Pilavachi has done, it's what Jonathan Fletcher did at Emmanuel Wimbledon (the church I used to go to), and it's what Chris Brain did at the Nine O'Clock Service in the nineties. Anglican safeguarding is absolutely awash with loopholes and failures, and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Sameynamey · 09/05/2023 22:26

LolaSmiles · 09/05/2023 21:32

Have these statements been made to the press and widely reported or is it something you've had to dig to find?

All over Twitter if you #soulsurvivor #mikepilavachi. I felt a need to connect and see if others had the same experience as me. It’s telling how many felt they could not speak out.

Sameynamey · 09/05/2023 22:28

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:26

This is actually a major problem in the Church of England - there's so many different forms of belief in it, that there's provision for all sorts of alternative oversight of churches, and it's possible for those that know what they're doing to carve independent fiefdoms out of it, without any senior clergy really knowing what's going on. It seems to be exactly what Pilavachi has done, it's what Jonathan Fletcher did at Emmanuel Wimbledon (the church I used to go to), and it's what Chris Brain did at the Nine O'Clock Service in the nineties. Anglican safeguarding is absolutely awash with loopholes and failures, and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Exactly it was favoured positions for his special people including the influence on HTB clergy.

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:29

LotsOfBalloons · 09/05/2023 22:24

Wow primative that echos so many of my thoughts.

And yes to the therapy but some therapists are Christian (especially the ones with reduced rates) and then you find them either - Christian and you feel bad dissing the whole set up or not Christian and haven't a clue why you persevered with the church and how all encompassing it was

Primative I really found your post.helpful thinking about the huge knock on effect on self esteem and relationships and such intensity at always scrutinising life and if it measured up to God's will or path .

It is a bit like recovering from an abusive relationship- and Also the way it makes you question so much.

Thanks for that - I've read your posts too, and they really resonated with me.

I know what you mean about therapists. Thankfully I've found some people who have been able to help, at least a bit, although I think I need to dig deeper to sort out some of the more catastrophic damage. I can't set foot in a church these days without being overcome with panic and an urge to run a long way at great speed.

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:32

Sameynamey · 09/05/2023 22:28

Exactly it was favoured positions for his special people including the influence on HTB clergy.

Don't even get me started on HTB. They're responsible for the abomination that is the Alpha Course.

onepieceoflollipop · 09/05/2023 22:34

@AccidentallyFabulous
I also recommend people accessing Mrs GLW/Natalie Collins as you highlighted above.

Like many of you on here I have very mixed emotions. I’ve been to Soul Survivor for the day a couple of times. My dd has been several times.

I do recall feeling uncomfortable about 4 years ago maybe 2019 at SS - MP was preaching, and addressed Tom (Worship Leader) in a very sarcastic unpleasant way. It wasn’t clear for maybe 20-30 seconds if it was ‘banter’ or not…
I remember feeling it was really ‘off’. since then I’ve seen a YouTube clip of him doing similar to another worship band person ((keyboard player)

Matt Redman’s statement is very interesting.

It also seemed odd that when the Soul Survivor Church made their recent statement, Andy Croft opted to wear his dog collar. The vibe I got from that was ‘look, we’re proper CofE people, law abiding, not doing anything unusual here’. Interesting that although he and MP are ordained Anglican clergy they don’t tend to make such a deal of it?

LotsOfBalloons · 09/05/2023 22:40

Wow Pimitive. Ive just gone down a Fletcher rabbit hole. Both St Ebbes and St Aldates had cult like followings (but very different corners of the church) and yes to the whole conveyor belt of young ordinands coming through only really experienced in one discipline. I didnt know the Fletchet stuff.

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:41

onepieceoflollipop · 09/05/2023 22:34

@AccidentallyFabulous
I also recommend people accessing Mrs GLW/Natalie Collins as you highlighted above.

Like many of you on here I have very mixed emotions. I’ve been to Soul Survivor for the day a couple of times. My dd has been several times.

I do recall feeling uncomfortable about 4 years ago maybe 2019 at SS - MP was preaching, and addressed Tom (Worship Leader) in a very sarcastic unpleasant way. It wasn’t clear for maybe 20-30 seconds if it was ‘banter’ or not…
I remember feeling it was really ‘off’. since then I’ve seen a YouTube clip of him doing similar to another worship band person ((keyboard player)

Matt Redman’s statement is very interesting.

It also seemed odd that when the Soul Survivor Church made their recent statement, Andy Croft opted to wear his dog collar. The vibe I got from that was ‘look, we’re proper CofE people, law abiding, not doing anything unusual here’. Interesting that although he and MP are ordained Anglican clergy they don’t tend to make such a deal of it?

Doesn't it make you feel uncomfortable when you start to see things unravel?

I'm a pretty emotionally deep and sensitive sort of person, and the experiences I've had in charismatic events have been some of the deepest and most moving I've had anywhere. To come to the realisation that it was all not what it seemed can be absolutely devastating.

The Church of England has long been a respectable shield for dodgy people to hide behind, sadly.

Sameynamey · 09/05/2023 22:44

LotsOfBalloons · 09/05/2023 22:40

Wow Pimitive. Ive just gone down a Fletcher rabbit hole. Both St Ebbes and St Aldates had cult like followings (but very different corners of the church) and yes to the whole conveyor belt of young ordinands coming through only really experienced in one discipline. I didnt know the Fletchet stuff.

Follow the career path of the original group, Soul Survivor, St Aldgate’s, HTB and on to prestigious London clergy appointments. This is large scale corruption.

PrimitivePerson · 09/05/2023 22:44

LotsOfBalloons · 09/05/2023 22:40

Wow Pimitive. Ive just gone down a Fletcher rabbit hole. Both St Ebbes and St Aldates had cult like followings (but very different corners of the church) and yes to the whole conveyor belt of young ordinands coming through only really experienced in one discipline. I didnt know the Fletchet stuff.

I went to Oxford Brookes University, so David Fletcher was a big figure on the evangelical church scene when I was there, but I was a mature student and found Ebbes and Aldates a bit too "over-studenty" for my liking, so I went to a Baptist church out in the suburbs. I was happy there, and thankfully it wasn't prone to the personality cults surrounding the student megachurches.

But yeah, both the Fletchers turned out to be utterly, utterly vile, and covered up the horrors that John Smyth was guilty of in the seventies and eighties.

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