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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Will you make it to Heaven?

829 replies

Vincitveritas · 12/03/2023 11:54

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Parker231 · 18/03/2023 01:38

Vincitveritas · 17/03/2023 23:58

Adding to my earlier reply to Parker231 and pointythings, a quote by Baptist Preacher Charles Spurgeon:

"…if sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies, and if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees…".

Trying threats again!

speakout · 18/03/2023 07:17

I am curious about the "dangerous path".

What does that mean exactly?

It is supremely arrogant to suggest humans are lost to immorality without a book to keep them right. Especially when that book is full of hate and bigotry.

speakout · 18/03/2023 07:29

Parker231 · 18/03/2023 01:38

Trying threats again!

Exactly.
My niece is a recovering christian, and one of the exercises she did was to imagine god as your husband as a way of examining his actions.

Threats of punishment if you don't love him, jealousy, anger, actual physical attack, won't allow you to keep images of old boyfriends, capricious, homophobic, prone to violent mood swings, mysoginostic.

Spends time telling you that you are broken, sinful,child like, but if you stick around he will make sure you are OK.

This is gaslightng in the extreme. If a friend was in such a relationship we would be suggesting she calls women's aid, and enrols in the freedom programme.

We are not sheep, we are not children, we are not sinful, we are not in need of rescuing by some mean old creep.
Most of us are more moral than the god of the bible, who thinks nothing of mass genocide on a wet Wednesday afternoon because he has nothing better to do.

Why people see fit to worship such a fucked up god is beyond me.

OMG12 · 18/03/2023 08:36

This study is quite interesting on the impact a belief in heaven and hell has on both on society and the individual- in short good for society bad for the individual.

This is an interesting very brief summary on how the concept of hell has developed and is still developing (although missing some important developments)

DaughterOfGaia · 18/03/2023 09:07

Vincitveritas · 13/03/2023 22:59

Thanks @pointythings I'm only 27% pagan apparently. 😉

I don't think some have read far enough down in the results. When I ticked 'never' for all the questions (big fib) it said:

'What you may, or may not know, is that the questions above form part of the 10 commandments that God has given mankind. These commandments are a expression of God's character for He is perfect, sinless, and holy. Sin cannot dwell in His presence without Him compromising His character - and He cannot do that. So the pass rate for getting into heaven isn't 50, 70 or 90%. It's 100%. He cannot let anything imperfect reside in Heaven else it wouldn't be perfect anymore.'

There's a street Preacher on YouTube called Joe Kirby. He makes a good point in saying only two types of people will enter Heaven - they're either perfect or forgiven and there's no such thing as a perfect person.

Interesting. I'm pretty sure the Bible says we are all sinful by nature so I guess no one is getting into heaven with that expectation.

speakout · 18/03/2023 09:13

there's no such thing as a perfect person.

That is a uselesss determination.

Who would even want to be "perfect" even if it were possible.

Are elephants imperfect?

I am human.
I am perfect at being human- and all that entails.

OMG12 · 18/03/2023 12:22

You see when you break down organised religion, it’s rather like weight watchers. It has an inbuilt mechanism that will always eventually lead to failure. It sets itself up as being good for you, but as soon as you leave you fail and have to return, you’re left with no choice but to keep paying and living off mugshots and muller lights (or is that slimming world.

if people stepped back from organised religion and started looking for heir own meaning within life, including spirituality if that feels authentic to them there might be more connection.

if you accept an all powerful God, you have to accept he also has a power over evil. God is also Satan. Satan is the temptation element of God, as Yeats said the demon is the other side of God.

as Nietzsche once wrote

“ When I was twelve years old I thought up an odd trinity: namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Devil. My inference wasthat God, in contemplating himself, created the second person of the godhead; but that, in order to be able to contemplate himself, he had to contemplate, and thus to create, his opposite.--With this I began to do philosophy.”

Elphame · 18/03/2023 13:29

Yeats said the demon is the other side of God.

Christianity has to have the Adversary as without one there is no point to the religion at all.

I admit that reading threads like this diminishes any respect I might have had for Christianity and I do feel very sorry for those ensnared in the religion by the fear of hell.

OMG12 · 18/03/2023 14:39

Elphame · 18/03/2023 13:29

Yeats said the demon is the other side of God.

Christianity has to have the Adversary as without one there is no point to the religion at all.

I admit that reading threads like this diminishes any respect I might have had for Christianity and I do feel very sorry for those ensnared in the religion by the fear of hell.

Yep without darkness there can be no light.

i guess everyone is on their own journey, but in any spiritual path it’s important to look for the truth in all things, and that includes religions designed by man which all religions are. But there’s light in them all. But you have to seperate the true ku spiritual from the mundane (often harmful) elements

pointythings · 18/03/2023 17:15

@OMG12 I love your posts on this subject. So well thought out.

OMG12 · 18/03/2023 17:52

pointythings · 18/03/2023 17:15

@OMG12 I love your posts on this subject. So well thought out.

Thank you, I’m not always so sure of that, but always welcome the chance to participate in good, erudite respectful debate.

I'm rather blessed to be able to mix with a wide variety of people from atheistic Satanists to committed orthodox Christian’s to agnostics to people who follow the Jewish faith to atheists to gnotistcs and everything in between. All trying to improve themselves finding the right path for them you soon realise everyone has far more in common than bring different.

pointythings · 18/03/2023 18:03

@OMG12 my circle of friends is very similar, and we all respect each other. And don't tell each other that we're going to Hell!

In a way it's sad, because people are looking for spirituality and a higher purpose. If I had to have a faith, I'd be a pagan because that is what pulls me - that, and the fact that a tenet of 'do no harm' is a pretty good guide for life.

Wellthatwasweird · 18/03/2023 18:20

pointythings · 18/03/2023 18:03

@OMG12 my circle of friends is very similar, and we all respect each other. And don't tell each other that we're going to Hell!

In a way it's sad, because people are looking for spirituality and a higher purpose. If I had to have a faith, I'd be a pagan because that is what pulls me - that, and the fact that a tenet of 'do no harm' is a pretty good guide for life.

Weren't pagans involved in the ritualistic sacrifice of children through the years?

Parker231 · 18/03/2023 18:24

Love the weight watchers comment!

pointythings · 18/03/2023 18:25

@Wellthatwasweird not pagans as they are right now. Things evolve. As all faiths should do.

Vincitveritas · 18/03/2023 20:46

Parker231 · 18/03/2023 01:38

Trying threats again!

Try reading it again, that's not what he meant.

It's no secret that civilised society is rapidly unravelling before our very eyes. I hear the phrase "Going to hell in a handbasket" frequently. I think this has everything to do with our nation and the wider world turning it's back on God. It isn't a matter of just 'not following the Bible', but an attempt to totally eradicate God from all aspects of life. As I'm short on time, I'll let Saint Paul do the talking here, as it were:

'I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed - a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith."

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.' Romans 1:14-32.

&

'But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.' 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

&

'For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.' 2 Timothy 4:3.

OP posts:
pointythings · 18/03/2023 21:11

It's no secret that civilised society is rapidly unravelling before our very eyes.

Examples, please. Not Biblical rants from the world's greatest misogynist.

Parker231 · 18/03/2023 21:24

@Vincitveritas

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error

your God doesn’t sound very supportive of same sex relationships so probably someone to ignore.

ShodanLives · 18/03/2023 21:55

It's no secret that civilised society is rapidly unravelling before our very eyes.

We must be looking at the world in very different ways because it doesn't seem to be unravelling to me. Like I said, a lot of things are better now than 100 years ago. Especially if you're a woman, or gay, or disabled, or an ethnic minority, or not a Christian, or the wrong type of Christian.

I'd suggest maybe moving to Afghanistan, it seems to be more your speed.

pointythings · 18/03/2023 22:05

@ShodanLives to be fair the second hand is closer to midnight than it has ever been due to the many political flashpoints that could turn into war.

But given @Vincitveritas ' quote I doubt that's what she meant and it will all be about how bad it is that so many of us are atheists (or not Christians, or the wrong flavour of Christians), or gay, or having sex whilst unmarried. It's still the age old obsession with what other people do in the bedroom, sadly.

OMG12 · 18/03/2023 22:13

Wellthatwasweird · 18/03/2023 18:20

Weren't pagans involved in the ritualistic sacrifice of children through the years?

No

Vincitveritas · 18/03/2023 22:49

@pointythings @Parker231 & @ShodanLives Not my business what goes on behind closed doors and this isn't just my subjective opinion. You only have to turn on the TV or open a newspaper to see what's happening today - we're dealing with unprecedented levels of evil.

@OMG12 I'm fairly sure they were:

www.bbc.com/future/article/20220907-the-mystery-of-the-human-sacrifices-buried-in-europes-bogs

OP posts:
ShodanLives · 18/03/2023 23:00

Vincitveritas · 18/03/2023 22:49

@pointythings @Parker231 & @ShodanLives Not my business what goes on behind closed doors and this isn't just my subjective opinion. You only have to turn on the TV or open a newspaper to see what's happening today - we're dealing with unprecedented levels of evil.

@OMG12 I'm fairly sure they were:

www.bbc.com/future/article/20220907-the-mystery-of-the-human-sacrifices-buried-in-europes-bogs

That's your evidence that things are worse now? There's bad news on TV?

Vincitveritas · 18/03/2023 23:08

Looks like you've got your head firmly in the sand there @ShodanLives.

OP posts:
OMG12 · 18/03/2023 23:25

pointythings · 18/03/2023 18:03

@OMG12 my circle of friends is very similar, and we all respect each other. And don't tell each other that we're going to Hell!

In a way it's sad, because people are looking for spirituality and a higher purpose. If I had to have a faith, I'd be a pagan because that is what pulls me - that, and the fact that a tenet of 'do no harm' is a pretty good guide for life.

my life is heavy involved with occult traditions- is such a shame western esotericism has been overshadowed by both organised religion and eastern philosophy as many people in thecwest would probably find a connect, but It’s about respecting others and recognising the many paths people take.