@Mustardseed86
There's a whole lot more I could say on the matter but for the sake of everybody else reading, here is the edited version!
Yes, it's clear that you're keen to label me. I'm not Anglo-Catholic though.
Not trying to label at all, just attempting to understand where these ideas might be stemming from.
We could go back and forth with Bible verses because there are always passages which can be used for one purpose or another, especially if you strip away all context, linguistic differences and the concept of genres, rhetoric, God's protection of the innocent, exhortations etc.
I think it's very important to look at what it says in Scripture about the subject. I'd be interested in your thoughts on these passages:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16.
If everyone reaches Heaven in the end, what is meant by the word 'perish' here?
..."and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians 1:10.
Again, if everyone eventually reaches Heaven, why the need for a rescue mission?
"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Matthew 26:24.
Jesus is talking about Judas Iscariot here. Why would he say it would be better for him if he'd never been born if Judas was going to see Him in Heaven anyway?
"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:3-7.
How else can we interpret these verses? Am I missing something?
The parable of the sheep and the goats ends with the blunt sentence, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46.
The same Greek word for eternal is used to describe the fate of both the righteous and the ungodly. If Hell is not eternal then neither is Heaven. Note the word 'punishment', this fire is not purifying or corrective, it is retributive justice. There's also verse 41; “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Jesus said "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” John 8:24.
The wages of sin is death (for everyone).
on occasion Jesus made reference to a location called Gehenna just outside Jerusalem where rubbish was constantly being burned.
I agree but would argue that Jesus was using this place - a constantly burning, rubbish heap - as a metaphor to describe the nature of Hell.
“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people - everyone whose name is found written in the book [of life] - will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2.
Why are you asking me what happens to someone like Hitler? I believe in judgement and repentance, and in leaving the specifics of that to a loving God.
Unless I've misunderstood, you were denying the existence Hell, or if it does exist it's more along the lines of purgatory, and believe in the Universalist idea that everyone will one day be welcomed into God's Kingdom.
There is no contradiction in speaking of a second death after death for those who are unrepentant, taken in a context in which Jesus has defeated death and the gates of the New Jerusalem are open, with everyone invited to wash their clothes and come and drink of the living water.
Yes, in this life, through faith in Jesus and forgiveness of sins. Nowhere in the Bible does it suggest that people get a second chance after death. In fact, there are two different judgements and two separate bodily resurrections for the righteous and the ungodly.
There is nothing 'works based' about accepting salvation
Completely agree. I meant your description of who does and does not get into Heaven appears to be works based.
You're preaching a very ugly 'gospel'
If that's the case, so was Jesus Christ.
For a Biblical literalist, you're very quick to dismiss the many verses talking of God's endless mercy.
Absolutely not, please go back and read the rest of the thread. I don't subscribe to predestination, the offer of eternal life is available to all mankind if they will only accept it. As King David sang:
"Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.
Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
so that sinners will turn back to you.