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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Will you make it to Heaven?

829 replies

Vincitveritas · 12/03/2023 11:54

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

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Blaueblumen · 21/04/2023 11:41

You have to step away from a scientific mindset and concentrate solely as to what works for you,

What works for me? My brain does seem to look for evidence of facts before it believes something to be true.

Why would God make himself so inaccessible to those of us who have a more analytical mindset?

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 12:05

Blaueblumen · 21/04/2023 11:41

You have to step away from a scientific mindset and concentrate solely as to what works for you,

What works for me? My brain does seem to look for evidence of facts before it believes something to be true.

Why would God make himself so inaccessible to those of us who have a more analytical mindset?

Well, maybe God isn’t for you this time round? Maybe you need to live a life without faith and learn from that?

maybe there’s a way to reconcile the two things?

maybe you need to learn to adapt your mindset?

maybe it’s a lesson in how to deal with things that cannot be analysed rationally.

who knows?

But you probably will never get answers from others. You need to find these yourself.

The problem with religion when it comes to spirituality is that it looks like it offers pre packaged universal answers so we think that is spirituality but it really isn’t. No one can answer any of these questions for you, if you want to find the answers you need to look inward not outward. But you might not be in the right place to find them.

Blaueblumen · 21/04/2023 12:27

No one can answer any of these questions for you, if you want to find the answers you need to look inward not outward.

Why would a God be so inaccessible?

Why does he only 'exist' within you and you only access him when looking inside yourself?

This makes it seem even more a made up story that you just 'believe' in.

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 12:33

Blaueblumen · 21/04/2023 12:27

No one can answer any of these questions for you, if you want to find the answers you need to look inward not outward.

Why would a God be so inaccessible?

Why does he only 'exist' within you and you only access him when looking inside yourself?

This makes it seem even more a made up story that you just 'believe' in.

People spend a life time answering these questions and others. You can either choose to explore it yourself or not. But that’s all I can say on the matter. But if you seek in the right places you will find an answer.

You might like to try the works of William Blake.

Hawkins003 · 21/04/2023 17:41

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 12:33

People spend a life time answering these questions and others. You can either choose to explore it yourself or not. But that’s all I can say on the matter. But if you seek in the right places you will find an answer.

You might like to try the works of William Blake.

Basically it's all human creation,

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 17:48

Hawkins003 · 21/04/2023 17:41

Basically it's all human creation,

I prefer the following

  1. Tis true without lying, certain & most true.
  2. That wch is below is like that wch is above & that wch is above is like yt wch is below to do ye miracles of one only thing.
  3. And as all things have been & arose from one by ye mediation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.
  4. The Sun is its father, the moon its mother,
  5. the wind hath carried it in its belly, the earth its nourse.
  6. The father of all perfection in ye whole world is here.
  7. Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth. 7a) Seperate thou ye earth from ye fire, ye subtile from the gross sweetly wth great indoustry.
  8. It ascends from ye earth to ye heaven & again it desends to ye earth and receives ye force of things superior & inferior.
  9. By this means you shall have ye glory of ye whole world & thereby all obscurity shall fly from you.
  10. Its force is above all force. ffor it vanquishes every subtile thing & penetrates every solid thing. 11a) So was ye world created.
  11. From this are & do come admirable adaptaions whereof ye means (Or process) is here in this.
  12. Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist, having the three parts of ye philosophy of ye whole world.
  13. That wch I have said of ye operation of ye Sun is accomplished & ended.

Sir Issac Newtons Translation of the Emerald Tablet 1680

Hawkins003 · 21/04/2023 18:11

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 17:48

I prefer the following

  1. Tis true without lying, certain & most true.
  2. That wch is below is like that wch is above & that wch is above is like yt wch is below to do ye miracles of one only thing.
  3. And as all things have been & arose from one by ye mediation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.
  4. The Sun is its father, the moon its mother,
  5. the wind hath carried it in its belly, the earth its nourse.
  6. The father of all perfection in ye whole world is here.
  7. Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth. 7a) Seperate thou ye earth from ye fire, ye subtile from the gross sweetly wth great indoustry.
  8. It ascends from ye earth to ye heaven & again it desends to ye earth and receives ye force of things superior & inferior.
  9. By this means you shall have ye glory of ye whole world & thereby all obscurity shall fly from you.
  10. Its force is above all force. ffor it vanquishes every subtile thing & penetrates every solid thing. 11a) So was ye world created.
  11. From this are & do come admirable adaptaions whereof ye means (Or process) is here in this.
  12. Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist, having the three parts of ye philosophy of ye whole world.
  13. That wch I have said of ye operation of ye Sun is accomplished & ended.

Sir Issac Newtons Translation of the Emerald Tablet 1680

One can wonder about those tablets, certainly some mysteries in our history

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 18:17

Hawkins003 · 21/04/2023 18:11

One can wonder about those tablets, certainly some mysteries in our history

There certainly is, unfortunately the way Christianity has manifested itself over that last 2000 years a hell of a lot has been hidden through necessity

Hawkins003 · 21/04/2023 19:23

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 18:17

There certainly is, unfortunately the way Christianity has manifested itself over that last 2000 years a hell of a lot has been hidden through necessity

That's the pickle of it all, I bet if all true human history was available to study we would be like omg 😱

OMG12 · 21/04/2023 19:45

Hawkins003 · 21/04/2023 19:23

That's the pickle of it all, I bet if all true human history was available to study we would be like omg 😱

It’s interesting to look at western esotericism- you see a whole new perspective on European history

Eas1lyd1stracted · 21/04/2023 19:59

Catinabeanbag · 13/03/2023 20:22

I got 85-90% chance. Probably helped by the 'do you lust after the opposite sex' answer being 'never'.... funny they didn't ask about same-sex relationships 😂

I got 65- 85% and giggled a lot as I answered this one. I guess lesbians have a greater chance of heaven 🤣

Anthillveggie · 21/04/2023 22:01

Eas1lyd1stracted · 21/04/2023 19:59

I got 65- 85% and giggled a lot as I answered this one. I guess lesbians have a greater chance of heaven 🤣

I doubt the people who made that charming website see it that way.

Anthillveggie · 21/04/2023 22:19

Anthillveggie · 21/04/2023 22:01

I doubt the people who made that charming website see it that way.

https://jesusplusnothing.com/series/post/borngay

Is someone born gay? Will it keep them out of Heaven?

https://jesusplusnothing.com/series/post/borngay

Eas1lyd1stracted · 21/04/2023 22:37

OMG I didn't used to be gay. Now I know it was those darn sneaky pesticides. Luckily I'd got the lesson that noone scores 100% and gets into heaven anyway so trying is pointless. That was the moral right?

It actually took me far too long to realise this wasn't a spoof post hence the reply

OMG12 · 22/04/2023 07:44

Jesus Christ that’s horrendous. The Bible really should never have become available to all, stupid people get hold of it all the time.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with being gay - it’s there to try and ensure make heirs are produced.

I wish Christians would stop reading the Bible like a biography.

I know a lot of gay and bisexual spiritual people who would never spew such hatred. The bible doesn’t like women much either. Largely for similar reasons.

OMG12 · 22/04/2023 08:11

Male not make!

Mustardseed86 · 29/04/2023 12:33

Interesting thread. I'm a Christian but I'm not sure quizzes like the one you posted are that helpful @Vincitveritas - not wanting to offend you, but I think a few questions designed to show we're not perfect isn't going to be very compelling for most people. For one thing it doesn't really explain the concept of sin, and the idea of being sinful or even the existence of sin is really off-putting to modern sensibilities, so that needs a deeper discussion.

A lot of people will say well we have a different understanding today of what causes negative behaviour and a much of it comes from pain and trauma, so we should be kind to ourselves and not carry all this shame and fear around. And there's some truth in that. So how do we reconcile that as Christians?

Then there's this strain of evangelicalism which I think is where the quiz is coming from, that basically hinges on persuading you to accept that you as a person are so utterly reprehensible, nothing you do can ever really please God, and as a right-thinking individual the only thing to do is accept that and then 'say yes to Jesus', at which point you're all good and off you go (obviously that's very oversimplified!)

But even in the Old Testament before the Messiah came into the world there were people God described as righteous, good men and women who were doing their best to follow his moral laws. So it's not true (Biblically) that we're completely bad.

None of this is me saying I don't believe in sin, I absolutely do - and to the poster who claims "I'm not imperfect, I'm perfectly human" I would say I'd love to have what you're having**! I'm not saying this because of low self-esteem and hang-ups, I just know myself and even on my best day I'll have the odd uncharitable thought or I'll get short-tempered and things like that, which may not seem like a big deal to you, but even if you take God and His holiness out of the equation, I would rather not be like that. I both have good and bad in me as a person (and yes I know it sounds very unenlightened to put it like that but it works for me).

**Thankfully I have the Holy Spirit who is helping me get there!

But I think the world would be transformed if humanity as a whole didn't have these tendencies - to be prejudiced or hateful, or selfish with our resources, lacking compassion, agressive, exploiting other humans (including sexually), if we were perfectly forgiving and generous and all the other things we aspire to. That would be peace on earth, in the full Jewish sense of 'Shalom'. So yes I do think there is sin and brokenness in us which is somehow part of our nature, and yet not what our deepest selves are longing for. And trauma and psychological pain and acting out are all part and parcel of that. Christian teaching also says that this brokenness affects the physical world, causing things like disease and ultimately death. We're not necessarily morally responsible for sin, in fact you could actually view it as a kind of sickness which Jesus came to heal. The how and why of which I will leave to another post because this is way too long already!

So that's just some thoughts on the Christian worldview which I hope are helpful for someone.

Parker231 · 29/04/2023 12:50

@Mustardseed86 - all depends on whether you believe in heaven and hell - I don’t. Hell doesn’t exist and is just used to try and scare people.
As I don’t believe in any god either, these threads are interesting to understand what/why others believe but makes me even more relieved that I’m not caught up in any religion - makes more a happier and less complicated life.

Mustardseed86 · 29/04/2023 13:12

Hi Parker, yes the believing bit is pretty central! 😁 The events written about in the New Testament form the basis of belief for me.

Anyway as you say, it's good to understand people's beliefs. I know hell is a stumbling block for many and is seen as the bait and switch. I don't have a fully developed understanding of this so I feel unqualified to say too much, but I do believe God looks at our hearts and it's not only professing Christians will be able to be with Him after they die. Jesus said nobody comes to the Father except through Him, but there are different ways to interpret that.

There's also the teaching that from those who have received a lot, a lot will be expected. As a Christian I feel thankful that I have received and been able to accept all that it means to me but I'm sure I must have errors in my thinking here and there. And I'm hopeful for all of us as we seek truth and try our best to see with the light we each have. I hope that doesn't sound arrogant.

Parker231 · 29/04/2023 16:21

Mustardseed86 · 29/04/2023 13:12

Hi Parker, yes the believing bit is pretty central! 😁 The events written about in the New Testament form the basis of belief for me.

Anyway as you say, it's good to understand people's beliefs. I know hell is a stumbling block for many and is seen as the bait and switch. I don't have a fully developed understanding of this so I feel unqualified to say too much, but I do believe God looks at our hearts and it's not only professing Christians will be able to be with Him after they die. Jesus said nobody comes to the Father except through Him, but there are different ways to interpret that.

There's also the teaching that from those who have received a lot, a lot will be expected. As a Christian I feel thankful that I have received and been able to accept all that it means to me but I'm sure I must have errors in my thinking here and there. And I'm hopeful for all of us as we seek truth and try our best to see with the light we each have. I hope that doesn't sound arrogant.

Not arrogant at all @Mustardseed86 . Although I wouldn’t want to be with your god when I die. Thankfully for me as a non believer, I’m safe.

Ive no problem with others needing a religion so long as it doesn’t impact into my life.

Hawkins003 · 29/04/2023 17:24

Mustardseed86 · 29/04/2023 13:12

Hi Parker, yes the believing bit is pretty central! 😁 The events written about in the New Testament form the basis of belief for me.

Anyway as you say, it's good to understand people's beliefs. I know hell is a stumbling block for many and is seen as the bait and switch. I don't have a fully developed understanding of this so I feel unqualified to say too much, but I do believe God looks at our hearts and it's not only professing Christians will be able to be with Him after they die. Jesus said nobody comes to the Father except through Him, but there are different ways to interpret that.

There's also the teaching that from those who have received a lot, a lot will be expected. As a Christian I feel thankful that I have received and been able to accept all that it means to me but I'm sure I must have errors in my thinking here and there. And I'm hopeful for all of us as we seek truth and try our best to see with the light we each have. I hope that doesn't sound arrogant.

The issue with interpretation is that for all.we know, when the writings in the book were written did.they even know about having different meanings in the texts, other than a straight reading the words as they are.

It seems that it aims up all or most of the omg passages in the bible when people say oh that's ment to be interpreted as x, but then that's other humans basically making the texts say what they want them to mean, regardless of God's perspectives

Mustardseed86 · 29/04/2023 18:39

I take your point about differing interpretations and people seeing what they want to see, but the Bible is absolutely bursting full of symbolism and all sorts of references, so I don't think it's the case that they didn't know about multiple layers of meaning. If anything we tend to read it now with a rather impoverished perspective because we don't know all the nuances of the language or the context at the time. I'm by no means a Biblical expert but as I've learnt more it's been really fascinating and changed how I feel about the Bible as a whole.

I think the best way to read it, interpretation-wise, is to take the Bible as a whole as much as you can rather than lifting one bit out and dissecting it, and also be open and curious about the meanings and understanding early Jewish and subsequently Christian readers would have taken from the texts - which you can't really do on your own. I'm not Catholic but there's a strong tradition of this in church history and lots of incredible thinkers and theologians who have done this over the years. I think we can 'stand on their shoulders' to see things more clearly, while still being faithful to the text. The doctrine of the Trinity is a good example of this where even fundamentalist Protestants believe it even though the term isn't explicitly found within the Bible.

Having a particular agenda will definitely distort things, and obviously we all do that to some extent but I really try to put that aside and follow up on things as they come up for me in as intellectually honest a way as I can.

Hawkins003 · 29/04/2023 18:47

Mustardseed86 · 29/04/2023 18:39

I take your point about differing interpretations and people seeing what they want to see, but the Bible is absolutely bursting full of symbolism and all sorts of references, so I don't think it's the case that they didn't know about multiple layers of meaning. If anything we tend to read it now with a rather impoverished perspective because we don't know all the nuances of the language or the context at the time. I'm by no means a Biblical expert but as I've learnt more it's been really fascinating and changed how I feel about the Bible as a whole.

I think the best way to read it, interpretation-wise, is to take the Bible as a whole as much as you can rather than lifting one bit out and dissecting it, and also be open and curious about the meanings and understanding early Jewish and subsequently Christian readers would have taken from the texts - which you can't really do on your own. I'm not Catholic but there's a strong tradition of this in church history and lots of incredible thinkers and theologians who have done this over the years. I think we can 'stand on their shoulders' to see things more clearly, while still being faithful to the text. The doctrine of the Trinity is a good example of this where even fundamentalist Protestants believe it even though the term isn't explicitly found within the Bible.

Having a particular agenda will definitely distort things, and obviously we all do that to some extent but I really try to put that aside and follow up on things as they come up for me in as intellectually honest a way as I can.

Certainly intriguing perspectives

Mustardseed86 · 29/04/2023 19:28

Hawkins003 · 29/04/2023 18:47

Certainly intriguing perspectives

Very gnomic!