Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

@PriamFarrl

What would your recommended course of action be then?

My way does work for me. There have been successful outcomes in quite a few of my life events where the prognosis at first seem seemed very dire.

Whether you like it or not, the Anglican Church is founded on the Bible, which had certain views on this. Are they expected to change these views
^^
So was the Church of Scotland and it - along with other denominations - marries same sex couples.
^^
^^

There is an interesting report called 'AN APPROACH TO THE THEOLOGY OF SAME-SEX
MARRIAGE (2017)'
Which can be read online and details some of the reflections in the lead up to the C of S decision.

I think as long as you aren't hurting anyone else, it should be up to the individual how they conduct their sex life.
Who was it who said "judge not and ye shall not be judged"? A lot of churches would do well to abide by that.

I don't agree, they're not on a par. The main Bible passage about money lending is under the title "Miscellaneous Regulations" in Deuteronomy chapter 23 verse 19 to 20 -

19 Do not charge interest on the loans you make to a fellow Israelite, whether you loan money, or food, or anything else. 20 You may charge interest to foreigners, but you may not charge interest to Israelites, so that the Lord your God may bless you in everything you do in the land you are about to enter and occupy.

This is why religious Jews have a tradition of interest free lending, primarily to fellow Jews -

www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4108763/jewish/Moneylending-and-Jewish-Law.htm

The rules around this and modesty don't come under the moral law. Rules around sexual behaviour are different -

1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 3 to 5 -

3 God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin. 4 Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor— 5 not in lustful passion like the pagans who do not know God and his ways.

Acts 15 verses 19 to 21 -

19 “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. 21 For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.”

What is sexual immorality according to the Bible? Any sexual activity that goes against God’s standard written in the Bible, including adultery, sex outside marriage and prostitution.

1 Corinthians chapter 6 verse 18 -

18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

“The main Bible passage about money lending is under the title "Miscellaneous Regulations" in Deuteronomy chapter 23 verse 19 to 20 -“

It’s the main passage if you ignore the New Testament, which obviously Jews do...

IME people aren't against sex relationships because the bible says so, the use the bible to try to justify their existing homophobia. @Bruuuuhhhh is a perfect example of that.

Yep

The bible is at best vague about it, at worst is relying on translating words Paul literally invented into English.

AnorLondo not actual blackmail - exerting influence/power coercion more likely - as I do not see on what merits she obtained ’access’ to Welby - esp in what purports to be an egalitarian society 👍🏿☘️

She gained "access" because Welby invited her to speak with him.

Still mystified as to Welby’s choice - 👍🏿☘️

You're wrong, I am not against gay people, I am bisexual myself and I was born that way. It is very clear to me, a Christian, that homosexual activity is not supported by the Bible, and therefore God. If Jesus had said anything to the contrary or told us to marry/love whoever we wanted then I'd have a different opinion.

@tabulahrasa What do you mean Paul invented something into English?

Why? He probably talks to a lot of people, and was probably hoping talking to Sandi Toksvig might be good PR after some controversial decisions. And not sure what you mean by those random emojis you put after every post.

Your first two statements contradict each other. You think homosexuality is wrong and keep quoting from an extraordinarily homophobic website. That screams 'looking to justify existing bigotry' to me.

“What do you mean Paul invented something into English?”

No, in Greek, one of the contentious words is Arsenokoitai which is a compound word, but he made it up - and it’s not obvious exactly what meaning he meant it to have, could be homosexuality, could be peadophilia, could be prostitution, could be something else entirely.

I mean, 'Do not lie with a man as you would with a woman' is fairly clear. As a gay woman I'd never lie with a man as I would with a woman.....

In case anyone is still confused about why Christians seem to "cherry pick" parts of the Bible -

@tabulahrasa
The word arseno means men and koitai bed, so men who bed other men and when read in the context of other verses on the same subject it's plain what Paul meant.

@AnorLondo Please change the record. You are being deliberately inflammatory. I'm not trying to start arguments, spread homophobia or defend my viewpoint. I'm simply explaining to people who might not understand why I/other Christians/the CofE take the stance we do. I find it hypocritical that a vocal minority shout about love and tolerance while hating on Christians and enforcing their viewpoint on others in the same breath. They almost never go after other faiths either. I'm not against civil same sex marriage, but marriage in a church setting and those who identify as LGBT and Christian have other denominations which will marry them.

So you have no problem whatsoever with homosexual relationships/marriages?
None whatsoever. But I'm not sure that it is right to go against what the Bible obviously says and allow the Church to do the wedding. And I feel the Church is stronger when it doesn't feel the need to fit in with society.

“The word arseno means men and koitai bed, so men who bed other men and when read in the context of other verses on the same subject it's plain what Paul meant.”

It absolutely is not plain, there are loads of scholarly debates about that word, the translations of it and what it could mean.

The thing is, his other mention of it also contain a contentious translation of a Greek word.

So, no, it really isn’t clear by context either.

I don’t know what you’re looking at to get the impression it’s a settled meaning, it’s very very disputed.

No one is hating on Christians.

@Catinabeanbag Romans 1 chapters 26 to 27.

@tabulahrasa I'm still not convinced and anyway, like I said it needs to be seen though the wider lens of the Bible as a whole.

@AnorLondo You only have to glance at any thread on here about Christianity to see they absolutely are. That's leaving aside the constant barrage by the media.

And I feel the Church is stronger when it doesn't feel the need to fit in with society.

Then the Church should perhaps consider its formal and institutional role within our society.

You only have to glance at any thread on here about Christianity to see they absolutely are. That's leaving aside the constant barrage by the media.

Criticising certain individuals and denominations for their homophobia is not the same as hating all Christians.

As far as I'm concerned, any British citizen has the absolute right to question the discriminatory practices of the Church of England, because of the CofE's privileged role in the UK state. It makes no difference if they are Christian or not, because the Church has a constitutional role which affects all of us, whether we like it or not.

Separate church and state properly, remove the monarch as head of the church and kick the bishops out of the House of Lords. Then you might have the right to talk about religious freedom. But for as long as the CofE continues to be our established church, then you should expect that any citizen will consider that they have the right to question or criticise it.

They almost never go after other faiths either.

Because other faiths don’t get a say in the laws of the land.