Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

That is something being imposed on the church, against the wishes of Christians.

Lot's of Christians are pro-equal marriage, and there are plenty of denominations and individual vicars who are happy to perform same-sex marriages. Thankfully people like you are becoming rarer and rarer.

👏👏👏

They all seem very similar to me. Which ones seem to have been altered to change the message? biblehub.com/romans/1-27.htm

@HandyLady Don't despair - Alslan is on the move!!

I've just remembered what the head of RE (a former monk) at my convent secondary school said about the Church's reasoning behind opposition to homosexuality: apparently, gay sex is really painful and God doesn't want people to suffer so He's banned it for that reason... This was during a "discussion" on Section 28 (guess what the teacher thought about that). Regarding lesbians: it's not real sex so it doesn't count.

I wish I was making this up.

Gotta love twisty logic!

@HandyLady the crux of the question around prohibitions on homosexuality centres on the translations of two Greek words: arsenokoitoi and malakos. The former is used twice in Corinthians but does not occur in other contemporaneous texts. The latter is common but its meaning is subject to much disagreement among scholars. This puts the prohibitions against gay sex as beloved by hardliners and homophobes on shaky ground from a scholarly and evidential perspective. Of course you are free to believe that is what your God meant, but belief is all it is.

apparently, gay sex is really painful

@MeganTheeScallion I must tell my lesbian DD that, she must br doing it wrong.

@pointythings

I wouldn't bother. Homophobes will go to any lengths to justify their prejudice, you can't reason with them.

Well, Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant for a start.

Then you have to start asking yourself whether you're a Council of Rome/Hippo/Carthage type of person.

And then there are still more layers as you get into the competing Judaic traditions in the compilation of the Old Testament texts BCE.

@HandyLady House! You're one of those who says being gay or transgender is a 'lifestyle choice' and your evidence is.... a YouTube video of some people who have put themselves through conversion therapy.

Let's see how those people are doing in 10 and 20 years' time, shall we? Because the research on conversion therapy says it won't look good for them.

@HandyLady and hey, your clip is from that completely unbiased institution known as ... the Christian Broadcast Network. Yep, that'll teach us.

Have the courtesy to watch the video.

No, none of the people had conversion therapy.

Always the same verse from Romans.... and no consideration with what comes before it - the words 'therefore' or 'because of this' suggest you need to read what came before. Which refers to people deserting God and making idols and worshipping them. I've never made an idol or worshipped it and I'm still gay. Haven't changed my natural desires for unnatural ones either.... never been interested in men, so no change there. If I woke up one morning right handed, I might wonder if I could also become staight overnight....but at the moment, still a lefty lesbian.

They said they were gay or bisexual and they "changed". Fuck that and fuck anyone who promotes it.

Fuck what? Changing from gay to straight?

Yes.

The video is part of a protest against the banning of conversion therapy. Which is a barbaric and ineffective practice.

I've watched the video and...so what? What do you think it proves? It certainly doesn't prove what it's designed to: that the Equality Act (USA), I.e. legislation protecting all kinds of people from discrimination, is bad.

The thing is, I don't care if people had gay experiences, then had straight experiences, or were a sex worker and now they aren't, or vice versa the whole lot. So what? Life is made up of people and people are different, complex, contradictory, predictable, surprising, and beautiful. Life is beautiful. Stop trying to make it ugly.

@HandyLady I've just skimmed through that video and seen nothing unexpected - lost, sad people indoctrinated by religion. It proves nothing, it just makes me sad. You think it is some great 'gotcha' that proves being gay is a lifestyle choice and therefore sinful. It's bullshit - anyone who is vulnerable and unhappy can fall victim to indoctrination. I could go on YouTube and find any number of videos from people like these, 10, 20 years on, talking about how it didn't work for them, how they were misled and brainwashed, how they have now accepted themselves for who they are - gay and all. That also would prove nothing.

I should however thank you. Earlier on you mentioned Islam, intending to use it as another 'gotcha' to prove that I only criticised Christianity (I don't). So I went and did a little reading on progressive movements within Islam, because I felt they had to exist. And they do! So if you look at it, all the major faiths have progressive movements within them which accept feminism and the LGBT community. That makes my day a little brighter. May you too move out of the dark ages one day.

What was it that made the Romans hate the Christians so much they made candles of them? If you are correct and there is nothing different about the Christian religion to the way ancient Romans lived, then why would Christians have been persecuted so much? Why are there never any testimonies of people who became Christians who either continued to live a homosexual lifestyle or started to live a homosexual lifestyle? Why do so many homosexuals have spiritual experiences with Jesus and then lose all interest in same-sex sexual relationships?

I'm not sure that Nero's lunatic hobbies are particularly relevant here. The man was clinically insane, probably due to lead poisoning. Christianity was a new religion, it was considered a threat to the existing political and power structure, hence persecution. It's nothing the ancient Egyptians didn't do to the followers of Aten after Akhenaten's death. It's nothing the Romans didn't do to the Druids. China, Myanmar and India are doing it to Muslims. Persecution of believers for political purposes is as old as humanity. Christianity has no special victim prerogative here.

I'd like to see some research data backing up your statements about homosexual people finding religion and not being gay anymore. Reputable, peer reviewed research, please. Nothing from some Alabama Bible College.

Why are there never any testimonies of people who became Christians who either continued to live a homosexual lifestyle or started to live a homosexual lifestyle?

You know perfectly well that there are plenty of Christian denominations who welcome gay people. One would expect them to find a place in these denominations rather than in one that excludes them, hence no 'testimonies'. I know several people who are both gay and Christian. They probably aren't your 'flavour' of Christian though.

I would imagine the Romans didn't like the Christians because they were part of a movement which challenged the power structures of the day, didn't put the Roman Gods on a pedestal but said there was only one God, didn't put leaders and men on pedestals, but again said all were equal under God, didn't differentiate between Greeks, Romans, Jews, slaves, free, men & woman (all are one in Christ Jesus) and so on.
That's probably going to annoy people more than what folk may or may not get up to in the privacy of their own homes.

I don't know a single person who says they are ex-gay.
I know several people who are both gay and Christian.
Have you watched 'pray away' on netflix? All about the Exodus International movement which claimed to be able to help gay people 'become straight' and how damaging it was to people.