Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

The Church of England is in a privileged position above all other Christian denominations and religions in the UK due to being the established church and seats for bishops in the House of Lords.

It gets more scrutiny on these issues because of this.

Chop the Lords Spiritual, make only civil marriage legal (as in France) and, as is the case for many other groups, people can have a quick legal ceremony and then do the "real" thing wherever is meaningful for them. This would likely mean that CoE priests would get as much public scrutiny about the issue as imams.

If the official state religion is homophobic, then surely any citizen has a right or even duty to question that.

NowDoYouBelieveMe · Today 11:34
If the official state religion is homophobic, then surely any citizen has a right or even duty to question that.“

Exactly.

Question is, as an Anglican, why are you so bothered about the CoE's homophobia being challenged? And why is it "pitiful" in your opinion, to do so?

I’m glad someone is calling them to account. And if you want to keep the position as established church, expect scrutiny.

Sandy said this,

"From our very calm and considered conversation yesterday, it is very clear that the state’s Church of England and the society it purports to represent are not remotely in step."

But does the C of E really purport to represent society? That's like equating society with God. Church supposed to be about finding relationship with God not a representation of society. So whatever any particular church does the aim is to strengthen relationship with God rather than represent society.

This isn't a comment on gay marriage, by the way. It's just a comment concerning the purpose of church.

Because what makes S Toksvig a moral authority on anything?
Whether you like it or not, the Anglican Church is founded on the Bible, which had certain views on this. Are they expected to change these views because one part of the church, in very recent times, has become Liberal?
If you don't agree with the church, as ST has said that she does, don't come to church. Most people don't. I disagree with what other religions think. Am I allowed to do a spot of sad-faced journalism about how awful they are?

Because it's the Established church.

Separate CoE and State and you've got a far better argument to be left to get on with it.

I agree

The personal comments about Toksvig and Welby in the OP are awful and unchristian.

I am tired of people claiming to be religious whilst behaving in an unacceptable way. This hypocrisy drives me mad.

I think it would be more fruitful to question the validity of the C of E's current stance in terms of biblical teachings relating to the subject. Since church is about human relationship with God.

Why is it unacceptable?
Why does ST feel entitled enough to publicly criticise a religion she doesn't belong to? Would she do it to Islam, Or Judaism?
And, yes Welby shouldn't be indulging her

I think the established church being so out of step, especially given the privileged political role of bishops, is a real problem.

My answer would be to reduce the church's role in the state, but can't see that happening any time soon.

I just think you sound very personal. The use of the word 'wet' is unacceptable in my opinion. Welby is a thoughtful man, you may disagree with his thoughts (I do) but using perjorative language is not OK.

Too many people claim to be religious but do not behave as though they are. This is one factor in the declining appeal of religion.

Did you mean your op to come across as nasty and homophobic?

Do you feel the same about lesbian and gay people who are members of the C of E asking for marriage equality?

Yes, let's abolish state religion. Take the bishops out of the house of lords.

Where does that leave the King though, as he's head of that religion and apparently appointed by God to lead the country and church?

And wasn't that the point of the monarch in the first place, that he was put here by God to rule over us subjects?

They'll have to change all the swearing-in rituals I suppose, as they are based on his association with the CoE.

Still, better than having a homophobic religion providing the traditional framework for society.

And, yes Welby shouldn't be indulging her

I actually think he should. Churches should be welcoming everyone. We are all human beings.

Where does that leave the King though, as he's head of that religion and apparently appointed by God to lead the country and church?

Who is qualified to lead?

“Whether you like it or not, the Anglican Church is founded on the Bible, which had certain views on this. Are they expected to change these views because one part of the church, in very recent times, has become Liberal?”

Why not? All Christian churches pick and choose parts of the bible to follow or not... why is that one thing different?

Because it throws into light the whole "everyone is equal in the eyes of God" bollocks. If everyone were, indeed equal, then why does that equality not extend to marrying in church? If the church has no issue with a gay person attending services, then why does it have a problem with them marrying at the place they worship. It's not like (generic), you can pray away the gay is it?

The Bible is actually very unclear with its homophobia. It is completely open to interpretation. Christians aren't obliged to be homophobic.

Similarly, the only reference to abortion in the Bible is a few lines of instruction on how to perform one.

These things need to be explicitly questioned wherever religion controls individuals' lives and freedoms.

Ah, a good Old Testament kind of ‘Christian’.

Maybe Sandi would like to be part of the Christian community, but is hampered by the intransigence of the likes of Justin, who, despite reaching the higher echelons of the UK’s state religion, doesn’t seem to have quite grasped the essence of Jesus’s teaching.

Yes I dont think the church represents society, I dont know that it claims to, I think it thinks its duty is to instruct or guide society in what it believes.

This. How dreadfully rude! OP thinks Sandi is entitled, but also believes it’s okay to call the head of her religion “wet”!

No, he's only Head because Henry VIII wanted a divorce. Archbishop of Canterbury could be Head if they wanted (I'm sure it's a bit more complicated than that).

Divine Right of Kings hasn't got anything to do with CofE and the last English monarch to invoke that got his head chopped off.

Plenty of Catholic countries managed fine without their monarch being the head of the church.