Christianity & homophobia

[airforsharon]

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

@JulieYS

Hi Tia, Good questions. Just remember that God is love - so yes, he does condemn the practice of homosexuality, but doesn't necessarily condemn the person. There were many in the first century who changed their ways, and became acceptable to God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

But that doesn't mean the Bible promotes gay hatred. Like Jesus, Christians show love and respect for everybody.

But essentially, the Bible does condemn the act of homosexuality - and not for no reason did God record those passages in the Bible. If we dissent one passage from the scriptures, then we are picking and choosing what we want the scriptures to say, rather than accepting it entirely as the word of God. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2 - that could mean not just adding/taking away from the actual Bible itself, but also detracting from or minimising certain Biblical passages that we don't like.

But I truly believe that, if we follow God's moral standards, we will be much happier, not only in ourselves, but also in our relationship with God.

I agree with this post. I don't feel that we can totally ignore something in the bible without undermining the whole book. Although times change, God doesn't. While this might seem very confusing, upsetting and inappropriate by today's standards, it doesn't mean we can or should dismiss it entirely or pretend it isn't there. And of course, like the PP said, we must be loving, respectful, and not stand between anyone and God/make any individual or group of people feel alienated or like God doesn't love them. It's difficult, I don't have all the answers. But I definitely feel that not ignoring or trying to change anything in the bible is important.

I agree with this post. I don't feel that we can totally ignore something in the bible without undermining the whole book. Although times change, God doesn't. While this might seem very confusing, upsetting and inappropriate by today's standards, it doesn't mean we can or should dismiss it entirely or pretend it isn't there. And of course, like the PP said, we must be loving, respectful, and not stand between anyone and God/make any individual or group of people feel alienated or like God doesn't love them. It's difficult, I don't have all the answers. But I definitely feel that not ignoring or trying to change anything in the bible is important.

Even the most hard-line evangelicals I know find themselves quite able to overlook a great deal of the Old Testament. Not Creation, or the 10 Commandments, or Leviticus condemning homosexuality. Those are still very much held up to demonstrate the extent of God's power and the particulars of what he wants. But the more pedantic or brutal parts of the Old Testament are apparently "not relevant as it's the Old Testament" or "meant to be interpreted figuratively". How they differentiate, I don't know. I've never gotten a clear answer to that.

@Gynaesaur
When you say "bestowing", what exactly do you mean?
God definitely would not condemn a practice, then "bestow" those feelings on people. That doesn't makes sense, nor is it something a loving God would do. He created us with free will. As Isaiah 48:18 shows, we need to choose the right path: "O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river."

Many passages are recorded in the Bible for us to understand what is acceptable, and what is not acceptable, to God. Other things the Bible condemns are adultery, idolatry, theft, greed, insobriety, extortion, lying, etc. For good reason. Not only are they for our own good, our peace of mind, our happiness, the happiness of people around us, our family, our neighbours - but they're also in the Bible to help us understand what we should be doing to come into an approved relationship with God.

The question is, am I willing to yield to what God wants? Or do I want to change God's standards to fit me?

Thank you for replying.
Which bit don't you agree with? A small percentage of the population are exclusively same sex attracted. The majority is attracted to the opposite sex. God- according to Christianity and most other world religions- created each and every one of us.

Now, obviously, nobody has to have homosexual intercourse. We have free will, we can exercise control over who we have sex with, if not who we are attracted to.

But that does mean that a percentage of the population does not have the opportunity for a mutually satisfying romantic and sexual relationship, without it being considered sinful. The majority of the population does have this opportunity, as they are attracted to the opposite sex and (so long as they also abide by Christian teaching concerning pre marital sex etc) would be able to have mutually satisfying romantic and sexual relationships that aren't considered sinful.

There's nothing fair about it. Why only test a small percentage of the population in this manner? (I'm aware that this argument could be applied to any of the suffering or inequality in the world, but I'm sticking to the confines of OP's question).

But the more pedantic or brutal parts of the Old Testament are apparently "not relevant as it's the Old Testament" or "meant to be interpreted figuratively". How they differentiate, I don't know. I've never gotten a clear answer to that.

I've actually written a book myself, independently published - and some of the reviews really took me by surprise at how readers have completely misunderstood certain passages I wrote, and also missed explanatory paragraphs. Perhaps I'm just a bad writer! But the greatest Author, God, would certainly not have made his magnum opus, the Bible, incomprehensible. So it needs to be read carefully, with an open mind, allowing the Bible to interpret itself (i.e. refrain from putting our own interpretations into it).

Interestingly, the Bible describes itself as being 'alive' (Hebrews 4:12) - it opens itself to people who are really searching for truth, but doesn't reveal itself to people whose thoughts and intentions are otherwise.

You mentioned that there are brutal parts in the Bible, which is very true. The Bible recorded the immoral, disgusting habits of certain nations - such as the ancient practice of child sacrifice. It condemned those practices vehemently. At the same time, God gave those perpetrators every chance to change their ways, again and again and again - but for those that did not listen, he had to bring about divine judgement on those nations, and individuals, not only to save the innocent, but also to show that he does not put up with such brutal behaviour indefinitely.

adultery, idolatry, theft, greed, insobriety, extortion, lying

Most of these have the likely potential to cause harm to people. From a non-religious standpoint, I'd disagree that idolatry is harmful, but I can see that it would be detrimental to religious observance, so I can see why it's included.

Homosexuality and the practice of it, however, is not intrinsically harmful to yourself or others. A lot of what's commanded in the Bible I abide by anyway, despite not being religious, as I can see that there are myriad things which cause harm to others or are detrimental to the individual themselves. But I cannot see why my homosexuality would be so personally or socially harmful that there is reason to condemn my practice of it entirely.

I think a lot of people are confused by the Old Testament in that they don't understand why Christians don't follow the Old Testament laws. They don't understand why it's unnecessary. So they think that the Old Testament is being dismissed when it really isn't.

(sorry, that reply was to @Gynaesaur)

I also don't know many Christians who dismiss the Old Testament. I do, though, know several non-Christians who THINK that Christians ignore or dismiss the Old Testament - I can't tell you how many people have gleefully asked me "How can you be a Christian if you have a tattoo? How can you be a Christian if you eat pork? The Old Testament even says you can't wear clothes made of more than one fabric..." Etc etc, because they've basically read this somewhere and then thought they've found a good anti-Christian argument, without actually realising that the following of these rules is unnecessary, or why.

@Gynaesaur
The point is, not that those practices are harmful to people, but that God disapproves of them.

And though we might find it hard to understand why certain things are condemned, God as our Creator and Father surely knows what is best for us, even if we don't see it ourselves. He put down dos and donts because he loves us, and wants us to be happy. Like a parent who tells their child never ever get inside a stranger's car. To the child, the stranger may seem nice, kind, the car's a pretty colour, he's offering their favourite sweets. But that child won't really understand until they're older. So, we may not like some of God's laws, or fully understand them, but our all-wise, all-knowing, beneficent Father put them there for good reason.

By the way, child sacrifice was an act of idolatry to the false god Baal. So idolatry can definitely be harmful.

'You shall not lie with a man as you would with a woman.'

As a gay woman, of course not. I'd never lie with a man as I would with a woman.
See the issue with taking things literally?
Or do I have to imagine myself a straight man when I'm reading the Bible?

God loves everyone whatever their sexuality. Christians should not be homophobic and none of the ones I know are. Sadly there are a few crazies in any population and there are, shamefully, some homophobic Christians. In my experience they tend to mainly be based in America or keyboard warriors/trolls.
There are of course, homophobic atheists too.

I'm not homophobic. Like I said earlier in this thread, as a Christian, I try to follow in Jesus' footsteps, showing love and respect to everyone. That is the mark of a true Christian, the love that they show to others.

I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has led a far from perfect life in the past. But I changed, and aligned myself with what the Bible says - which has brought me inner peace. With myself, and God. Every day is still an uphill struggle, but I'm trying my best, and I think God sees that.

What I wrote in this thread was simply to respond to @airforsharon's post - not to upset anyone. Definitely not my intention. At the same time, I can't water down what the Bible says.

@JulieYS
But I truly believe that, if we follow God's moral standards, we will be much happier, not only in ourselves, but also in our relationship with God.

So you think all gay people would be happier being celibate and never being in a relationship, or being in a loveless relationship with someone of the opposite sex, that being in a happy, healthy same-sex relationship?

@georama
I'm not telling anybody what to do.

I'm just highlighting what the bible says in response to the original post - not giving my own personal opinion.

Of course I can't dictate to people what they can or cannot do. That is entirely your prerogative. But if you want to understand what God's view is, and what he recommends to us, then that's why he put down in writing a quite lengthy and detailed book for us to read. It's then up to us what we do, or don't do, with that information.

I never said you're telling anyone what to do. But you said that you think people would be happier if they followed God's moral standards and according to you homosexuality goes against those. So it stands to reason you therefore think gay people would be he happier never having a relationship, having sex or falling in love.

I don't really understand why Sodom and Gomorrah got burnt down by God but the Gay village in Manchester is still standing? Has God got bored of burning down gay haunts? Or maybe, just maybe it's just how people at the time tried to make sense of a natural disaster or old ruins?
Perhaps you could ask your relative why God hasn't burnt down any gay places lately?

Also get him to explain why Lot offered up his virgin daughters to be gang raped? As well as being homophobic the Bible is generally a load of misogynistic crap, all written by men a very, very long time ago who had very little scientific understanding of the world compared to now.

Look, I don't really want to get into an endless argument/debate - we were asked for our beliefs on the matter, and I gave the specific bible verses that show God's candid view - he disapproves the act, but not necessarily the person.

It all boils down to whether you believe that the bible is actually from God - or not. If it is from God, then surely he has the right to tell us what is the best way to follow, for our own good.

It's a bold claim for a book to say that it's from God, so He made sure to include plenty of evidence to support its divinity - He made us, didn't take us for idiots, and knew exactly that mankind needed something written down as guidance through the ages. A touchstone. So if you genuinely want to investigate why we can be absolutely sure the bible is from God, by all means let me know.

But if you want to tear down God, tear down the bible, then that's another matter.

When I was in high school, someone heard me say something, completely misinterpreted it, and spread slander about me so quickly that by the end of the day it felt like the whole school hated me. Because of one silly quip I made about myself. So is it possible that we may have heard or read snippets from the Bible and completely misunderstood? Judged before examined? How about doing an unbiased, without prejudice, investigation of the bible to see if it truly is God's word, or not?

Except that plenty of Christians have read the Bible and come to a different conclusion than you. Not all Christians are homophobic. Some are even openly gay or bisexual. They're interpretation is no less valid than yours.

Christians vary tremendously on this issue. At my church, being homosexual was accepted as perfectly normal for them, ie God made them that way and it was healthy to be in a committed relationship. That was not the official line but the practice of the individual church.

The Bible was written at a time when little was known and has to be read in the context of not only the time but the prevailing culture. It is also partly history, partly wisdom and some is allegorical.

You will, however, encounter Christians who believe it is the literal word of God, eg those who think the world was created in six days - Creationists.

Non Christian belief systems vary too.

@JulieYS

Look, I don't really want to get into an endless argument/debate - we were asked for our beliefs on the matter, and I gave the specific bible verses that show God's candid view - he disapproves the act, but not necessarily the person.

It all boils down to whether you believe that the bible is actually from God - or not. If it is from God, then surely he has the right to tell us what is the best way to follow, for our own good.

It's a bold claim for a book to say that it's from God, so He made sure to include plenty of evidence to support its divinity - He made us, didn't take us for idiots, and knew exactly that mankind needed something written down as guidance through the ages. A touchstone. So if you genuinely want to investigate why we can be absolutely sure the bible is from God, by all means let me know.

But if you want to tear down God, tear down the bible, then that's another matter.

When I was in high school, someone heard me say something, completely misinterpreted it, and spread slander about me so quickly that by the end of the day it felt like the whole school hated me. Because of one silly quip I made about myself. So is it possible that we may have heard or read snippets from the Bible and completely misunderstood? Judged before examined? How about doing an unbiased, without prejudice, investigation of the bible to see if it truly is God's word, or not?

So what according to you does God want gay people to actually do?

@Kmblark @LBFseBrom

Anyone can easily misinterpret the Bible.

That’s why we fact-check, look up cross-reference scriptures, read context, all to make absolutely sure that we are getting the interpretation God originally intended. And not making our own interpretation to suit us.

So while one scripture on the subject can easily be misinterpreted, the fact that there are many many scriptures in the Bible of the same unequivocal view, God’s stance on the matter is abundantly clear: Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:24,26, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 - amongst others.

Also, don’t you think God is intelligent enough to future-proof his word, so that it’s relevant for everyone at any period of time? I certainly think he is, and has done so.

@georama
I can only tell you what the Bible says, in a nutshell, to change our ways.

But only if that’s what we really want to do to make things right between us and God. He’s a good God, and wants us to come to him.

How many of us have changed our ways to please our partner? I certainly have, I’m eating less meat because my husband’s vegetarian. He’s also eating more exotic things thanks to me. So even though it’s an imposition, and hard, if we really love God we can change.

Please, I don’t want to argue with anyone. I’m just telling you what I know from my studies of the bible.

That's basically the whole issue though, isn't it? One person can read scriptures, pray, cross check, 'fact' check...and still come to a completely different conclusion about something (like homosexuality) than another. Each will claim that they've done the study, read the Bible, and that their interepretation is the 'correct' one.
But will we ever truly know?

I don't think you can really compare someone eating different things to being gay but not acting on it. What food you like (or don't) or eat (or don't) for whatever reasons is not the same as something as intrinsic as one's sexuality. It would be more like someone saying that all left handed people should actually be right handed, so lets force them to be so. We tried that in the past and it didn't go well. And some of that was based on iffy interpretations of the Bible.

[quote JulieYS]**@Kmblark* @LBFseBrom*

Anyone can easily misinterpret the Bible.

That’s why we fact-check, look up cross-reference scriptures, read context, all to make absolutely sure that we are getting the interpretation God originally intended. And not making our own interpretation to suit us.

So while one scripture on the subject can easily be misinterpreted, the fact that there are many many scriptures in the Bible of the same unequivocal view, God’s stance on the matter is abundantly clear: Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:24,26, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 - amongst others.

Also, don’t you think God is intelligent enough to future-proof his word, so that it’s relevant for everyone at any period of time? I certainly think he is, and has done so.

@georama
I can only tell you what the Bible says, in a nutshell, to change our ways.

But only if that’s what we really want to do to make things right between us and God. He’s a good God, and wants us to come to him.

How many of us have changed our ways to please our partner? I certainly have, I’m eating less meat because my husband’s vegetarian. He’s also eating more exotic things thanks to me. So even though it’s an imposition, and hard, if we really love God we can change.

Please, I don’t want to argue with anyone. I’m just telling you what I know from my studies of the bible.[/quote]
So gay people should change their ways how? Just decide to be celibate the rest of their lives, never have a loving relationship, and that will somehow make them happier? Doesn't make sense.

I agree with you, georama, but some people are tunnel visioned and entrenched in their way of thinking.