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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Christianity & homophobia

280 replies

airforsharon · 12/12/2021 16:39

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

OP posts:
amoosee · 21/12/2021 10:19

@Flutterflybutterby

Also, like a PP said, I too find rather unhelpful this new fashion of declaring everyone to be 'phobic' of everything. It really is just a way of silencing or shouting down anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly agree with everything we say, isn't it? Really stands in the way of open and honest communication. If you'd rather people of other opinions and religions and cultures to yourself just shut up and never spoke, just say that Grin
I don't see anyone trying to shut down honest conversation. Durely telling others what words they can and can't use is closer to that.
Flutterflybutterby · 21/12/2021 13:17

"No one has ever given me a compelling reason why homosexuality is wrong and who exactly it harms."

Maybe your mistake is asking people to give you answers to something that comes from God, or even for expecting that as humans we are able to fully comprehend everything in the same way that God can Smile

"I don't see anyone trying to shut down honest conversation. Durely telling others what words they can and can't use is closer to that."

I strongly disagree. I think that using emotive words to brand someone with a certain label in order to shut them down because they don't agree with you wholeheartedly is very damaging to the concept of honest conversation. I don't see the need to namecall and give you inaccurate labels in order to prove any points. Just a thought!

amoosee · 21/12/2021 14:02

Maybe your mistake is asking people to give you answers to something that comes from God, or even for expecting that as humans we are able to fully comprehend everything in the same way that God can

Do basically, you have no actual reason that homosexuality is a bad thing. There are no negative consequences and no reason for it to br wrong.

I strongly disagree. I think that using emotive words to brand someone with a certain label in order to shut them down because they don't agree with you wholeheartedly is very damaging to the concept of honest conversation. I don't see the need to namecall and give you inaccurate labels in order to prove any points. Just a thought!

How is calling someone a homophobe for saying homophobic things shutting someone down? it's not name-calling, it's a description. I'm not saying that homophobes should not be able to post.

Aspiringmatriarch · 21/12/2021 22:09

I don't believe the texts which have been used to condemn homosexuality are actually about being gay or being in a gay relationship at all. The New Testament passages from Paul were written to Christian communities who would have understood them to be condemning the general excesses of the Roman culture in which they lived and things like ritual prostitution. It's a shame that it's been poorly translated over the years and taken in the wrong context for a long time to justify homophobia, but I would hope the majority of thoughtful and educated Christians would be able to do their research and see that it's really nothing to do with what we now understand about sexuality.

Flutterflybutterby · 21/12/2021 22:29

@amoosee

Maybe your mistake is asking people to give you answers to something that comes from God, or even for expecting that as humans we are able to fully comprehend everything in the same way that God can

Do basically, you have no actual reason that homosexuality is a bad thing. There are no negative consequences and no reason for it to br wrong.

I strongly disagree. I think that using emotive words to brand someone with a certain label in order to shut them down because they don't agree with you wholeheartedly is very damaging to the concept of honest conversation. I don't see the need to namecall and give you inaccurate labels in order to prove any points. Just a thought!

How is calling someone a homophobe for saying homophobic things shutting someone down? it's not name-calling, it's a description. I'm not saying that homophobes should not be able to post.

You misunderstand me. I never said that homosexuality is 'a bad thing', did I? I said that the bible describes it as sinful. If you want to quote me, please do so directly and don't put words in my mouth Smile

I don't think that anyone is bad or wrong, as I have tried to explain. I do believe that as a a group, humans are ALL sinful. For example, I am no less sinful now I am no longer bisexual. I am still a sinner just as much as before! As Christians, we are called upon to love others, and I try my best to love and show kindness to everyone. For example, the name calling is a little frustrating as I feel it's uncalled for and it isn't helpful as it simply isn't true. I 'a homophobe' or 'homophobic'. I am not 'phobic' of anything except spiders!) but I understand and appreciate that it is tempting to use strong and emotive words when we are discussing sensitive topics, especially if it puts us on a moral high ground socially. And that's okay. I know that this subject is a difficult one. And I have to remind myself that prior to my conversion I'd have been joining you shouting 'homophobe!!!' at any Christians like me. So namecall away SmileFlowers

Flutterflybutterby · 21/12/2021 22:31

Oops, that should read 'I am not a homophobe' 😂😂 When I said 'quote me directly', I do hope you don't choose that part to directly quote! Grin

amoosee · 22/12/2021 00:27

You misunderstand me. I never said that homosexuality is 'a bad thing', did I? I said that the bible describes it as sinful. If you want to quote me, please do so directly and don't put words in my mouth

I was under the impression that sins were generally considered bad.

example, the name calling is a little frustrating as I feel it's uncalled for and it isn't helpful as it simply isn't true. I 'a homophobe' or 'homophobic'. I am not 'phobic' of anything except spiders!)

If you believe that homosexuality is wrong and can and should be changed through prayer (or any other means) that to me is homophobic. It's not name calling any more that you constantly calling people sinners is.

Flutterflybutterby · 22/12/2021 04:22

@amoosee

You misunderstand me. I never said that homosexuality is 'a bad thing', did I? I said that the bible describes it as sinful. If you want to quote me, please do so directly and don't put words in my mouth

I was under the impression that sins were generally considered bad.

example, the name calling is a little frustrating as I feel it's uncalled for and it isn't helpful as it simply isn't true. I 'a homophobe' or 'homophobic'. I am not 'phobic' of anything except spiders!)

If you believe that homosexuality is wrong and can and should be changed through prayer (or any other means) that to me is homophobic. It's not name calling any more that you constantly calling people sinners is.

I don't believe homosexuals are wrong. Sometimes I wonder whether you're reading any of my messages Grin I literally just said that I don't think anyone is bad or wrong.

Also, I am sorry but I won't deny my personal experience with homosexuality and God simply because you don't approve of it. Smile

Flutterflybutterby · 22/12/2021 04:34

But honestly, it's okay if you don't understand or accept my experience. We can't all understand each other's lived experiences. We haven't lived everyone's experiences, so some can be difficult to comprehend. I haven't lived your experiences either, so I am sure there are parts of your life that I can't understand either. It's okay. We are all different.

And a part of me wants to object to your namecalling and false accusations of being a 'homophobe' simply because I chose to accept the word of God and everything within it, and therefore transformed my own life, because it doesn't seem fair that you're deliberately ignoring what I'm saying about my OWN experience and trying to twist it into me insulting or attacking others. I believe we should all be able to share our own personal experiences without being silenced or called names. BUT, on the other hand, I can't help but recall this passage from the bible:

'Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, or falsely say all kind of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for great is your reward in heaven.'

So I don't mind if you want to call me names or twist my words or try to make out like I'm full of hatred, when the very opposite it true. In fact, from reading the bible I feel that this is exactly the way that it's supposed to be - standing by the bible will never make anyone particularly popular with non-believers and that's a shame, but it's not unexpected. It's how it's meant to be. Like Jesus said, 'If the world hates you, keep in mind it hated me first.' So, hate away, insult away. I'm in good company Smile

And with that, dear @amoosee, I shall bid you adieu. I've greatly enjoyed our conversation, it has shown me how much progress I have made, because not long ago I'd have been far too afraid to have shared my experience with anyone, for fear of people reacting like you have. But now I don't feel afraid anymore. So thank you. This conversation has been a big step for me Smile

Good bye!

Flutterflybutterby · 22/12/2021 04:45
Flowers
amoosee · 22/12/2021 11:07

I don't believe homosexuals are wrong. Sometimes I wonder whether you're reading any of my messages grin I literally just said that I don't think anyone is bad or wrong.

I never said that you said that homosexuals is wrong. You said homosexuality is a sin. I inferred from that that sins are bad therefore homosexuality is bad. If you actually don't think sins are bad, my apologies.

And for the last time homophobe is not an insult. Its a descriptor. For someone who believes that homosexuality is wrong and should be changed.

Scautish · 22/12/2021 11:18

The best put-down of a homophobic Christian I have come across was from West Wing when the president responded to someone when she claimed homosexuality was a sin. She was very publicly put in her place and it makes me
Smile every time I watch it.

Catinabeanbag · 22/12/2021 21:11

@Flutterflybutterby

I will say, though, that I believe when considering from a Christian point of view, we need only consider the New Testament, because when Jesus died, the laws given by God to the Israelites were no longer valid, so we don't need to adhere to Old Testament laws these days. Much the same as how Christians can now get tattoos, eat pork, and wear clothing made from more than one material! So the verses on homosexuality that personally made me change were:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine."
1 Timothy 9-10

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Romans 1:26-27

I also want to say that I find the church in the UK is much more lenient about homosexuality than in other countries. My husband is from country B, and we live in country C (neither the UK). I think British churches are very affected by British culture when it comes to things like this, whereas the other churches we go to seem to stick purely to the bible when forming their beliefs and teachings. So I think this is why British churches either don't speak about homosexuality at all, or say it's okay. Cultural differences.

If you've got a bible that actually has the word 'homosexuality' in it, it's a bad translation. The word wasn't added in to bibles until 1947, and the original Greek doesn't mean what we now think it means.
Catinabeanbag · 22/12/2021 21:17

Are you a Christian? Or do you have much understanding about Christianity? I feel that the answer to both might be 'no', because you seem to be supremely missing the point. The point is that everyone, homosexual or otherwise, is a sinner. Literally everyone who is on earth, and who has ever lived, except Jesus Christ Himself. Everyone is a sinner. You're clinging to this idea of homosexuals being sinners, as if they're the only people who are sinners. But we ALL are. So why is it so difficult for you to accept that homosexuals are also sinners? I'm a little confused by this.

I'm a Christian. I'm also gay, and married. Like you, I believe we're all sinners. What I don't beleive, though, is that being gay is a sin, or that I am sinning by being in a relationship.
I've got enough other stuff I need to work on with God, my sexuality is not one of them.

PermanentTemporary · 22/12/2021 21:25

The equation of homosexuality with slave trading. Right. Two women, two men, in love and having sex is equally as bad as violently forcing other human beings into slavery and profiting from selling them.

What nonsense it all is. I would go back to the stage where you were questioning translations and finding a way to reinterpret this particular verse. Or even - horrors! - to talk to those liberal Christians who believe it is possible to follow Christ without insisting on the unchanging infallibility of every single word of the Bible.

Hothammock · 22/12/2021 21:48

Interesting thread. There is a recurring point being made that translations are wrong. So here is the word for word in Greek from 1Cor 6:9 with the Greek immediately followed by literal equivalent phrase in English. Hope that is helpful: Not πλανᾶσθε·be YOU being misled; οὔτεneither πόρνοιfornicators οὔτεnor εἰδωλολάτραιidolaters οὔτεnor μοιχοὶadulterers οὔτεnor μαλακοὶsoft [men] οὔτεnor ἀρσενοκοῖταιρσενοκοῖταιliers with males

DaisiesandButtercups · 23/12/2021 08:57

@Flutterflybutterby

I have enjoyed and been enlightened by your articulate and graceful posts which are clearly from your heart.

Flowers
Hvergelmir · 23/12/2021 14:21

Apparently, the both in the UK and the US fewer and fewer Christians are against homosexuality. Hopefully it won't be long before the views of posters like @Flutterflybutterby and @HmmGrey are a thing of the past.

Memeandmeagain · 26/12/2021 15:21

@airforsharon

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views. aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective. It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this). If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not? tia
Prophet Lot and his nation, the people of Sodom. As according to the Qur’an with English meaning and commentary.

Take what you will or believe what you like, it is as it is in the Quran. And don’t conflate issues with dislike of homosexuality in Islam against those who perpetrate injustices against those who claim to be homosexual. They are not the same. It is God who judges and punishes or forgives whomever of His salves as He wishes.

The people of Lot lived in a society full of corruption, the people had no shame, criminals and criminal activity abounded, and those passing through the town of Sodom risked robbery and physical abuse. The overall atmosphere of the town was not one of a cohesive society.

The people of Lot were without morals, without standards and without shame. It was to this town that God sent Prophet Lot; his message was to worship God alone.

The people of Sodom were content with their corrupt ways and had no desire to curb them. Lot became an annoyance and his words were ignored.

Prophet Lot called the people to give up their criminal activities and indecent behaviour but they refused to listen. Lot confronted his people and admonished them. He pointed out their corruption, their criminal activities and their unnatural sexual behaviour.

“Will you not fear God and obey Him? Verily! I am a trustworthy Messenger to you. So fear God and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it (my Message) my reward is only from the Lord of all that exists.” (Quran 26:161-164)

All three Abrahamic religions, (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) this is not acceptable. The idea that homosexuality is somehow genetically determined is also rejected by Islam. Quran clearly states that the people of Sodom were the first to practice this sexual aberration.

“Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds [i.e., peoples]? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people." (Quran 7:80-81)

The people of Sodom had reached such a level of degradation they no longer had any shame. They would commit their unnatural acts in public or in private. Satan was amongst them, and as is his way, he made their actions appear fair and wholesome.

When Lot insisted they change their evil ways, they wanted to drive him out of town, as if by calling to purity, he was the one committing a great sin. The people of Sodom said to Lot, “If you cease not, O Lot! Verily, you will be one of those who are driven out!” (Quran 26:167)

Lot openly expressed his anger and fury at the evil deeds and unnatural acts and called on God to save him and his family from the evil of the people of Sodom.

Prophet Abraham, the uncle of Prophet Lot, received three guests. Known for his generosity, Prophet Abraham roasted a calf but to his dismay, the guests refused to eat. This was very unusual. Travellers are usually hungry and the fact that these guests refused his generosity made Prophet Abraham very uneasy.

The guests saw his uneasiness and tried to put his fears to rest.
They said, “Do not be afraid!” (Quran 15:53) His fears allayed, Prophet Abraham asked his guests what business had bought them to his town. They replied, “We have been sent to a people who are criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners”. (Quran 15:58)
The people of Sodom had become corrupt, believing their evil ways were acceptable.

Prophet Lot continued to suffer due to the wicked ways and unnatural behaviour of the people around him, yet he patiently continued to deliver his message. He called the people to give up their wicked ways and obey the One God, worshipping Him alone. However, the townspeople continued to mock and belittle Lot, and even taunted him by challenging him to bring God’s torment upon them.
“Bring God’s torment upon us if you are one of the truthful.” (Quran 29:29)

Lot was overwhelmed with despair and beseeched God to grant him victory over these people, who committed great crimes and behaved unnaturally. At the time of Lot’s invocation, the messengers (angels) were with Prophet Abraham so they informed him of their mission to Lot and his people. They said, “And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)

Abraham was afraid, his nephew Lot was in the town of Sodom and it was about to be destroyed. He said to the angels “but Lot is there!” They replied, “We know better who is there, we will verily save him (Lot) and his family, except his wife, she will be of those who remain behind (i.e. she will be destroyed).” (Quran 29: 32)

He repeatedly appealed to them to seek sexual gratification in a lawful way.

“O my people! Here are my daughters (i.e. the womenfolk of my nation (town)); they are purer for you (if you marry them lawfully). So fear God and degrade me not as regards my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?” (Quran 11:78)

Lot was powerless before them yet he continued to plead and remind them of the evil of their ways. The town’s people jeered and mocked him saying, “Surely you know that we have neither any desire nor in need of your daughters, and indeed you know well what we want! (Quran 11:79).

The messengers reassured Lot by saying “surely we are messengers from your Lord.” (Quran 11:81) On hearing these words the towns people were afraid and started to disperse, leaving Lot and his family alone with the messengers (angels).

The messengers allayed the fears of Prophet Lot and instructed him to gather his family and leave the town of Sodom that night. Lot walked at the rear of his family to assure no one looked back on the towns of Sodom.

Lot’s wife remained behind and was afflicted by the punishment along with the wrong doers and wicked townspeople.

The punishment of God came upon them at early dawn, and God said,

“So We saved him and his family, all, except an old woman (his wife) among those who remained behind. Then afterward We destroyed the others. And We rained on them a rain (of torment). And how evil was the rain of those who had been warned. Verily, in this is indeed a sign, yet most of them are not believers.” (Quran 26:170-174)

The punishment that God promised, and Prophet Lot warned about, happened, for surely God keeps His promises. He promises severe punishment for the wrongdoers and Paradise is the reward of the righteous.

Thus, the pages were closed on the people of Lot.

electricdechocobo · 26/12/2021 18:35

@Memeandmeagain

If you're going to copy and paste a crock of homophobic shite, at least quote your sources.

Memeandmeagain · 26/12/2021 21:58

[quote electricdechocobo]@Memeandmeagain

If you're going to copy and paste a crock of homophobic shite, at least quote your sources.[/quote]
Really?

Why did you even bother to reply if can't figure out the reference to the source?

Maybe you need to wash your mouth of the filth first, then compose a sentence saying what you don't agree with? That might be start.

Why does it even bother you if you don't believe in God and what He says?

I find it difficult to fathom. It defies any logic when it doesn't even apply to you.

Peace.

PermanentTemporary · 26/12/2021 22:05

One of the really startling things about holy texts is encountering the actual use and trading of women like breed cattle by powerful men being presented as normal and virtuous which of course it was in the past and still is in many situations.

As you're telling people off for swearing on a website which used to have as one of its slogans 'Mumsnet - the one with the swearing', I'll say that those passages make Lot sound fucking deranged. A twisted man pleading with men to rape his daughters so that they could be considered sexually virtuous, and planning with God to destroy his wife because she wasn't quite good enough. What a prize

electricdechocobo · 26/12/2021 22:48

Why did you even bother to reply if can't figure out the reference to the source?

I don't know what website you took all that from. Was it here?
www.islamreligion.com/articles/1872/story-of-lot-part-1/

Maybe you need to wash your mouth of the filth first, then compose a sentence saying what you don't agree with? That might be start.

I'm not the one talking about being gay as a "sexual aberration" and as being a degradation. That's far more disgusting than anything I said.

Why does it even bother you if you don't believe in God and what He says?

Because people use it as an excuse to persecute others. Including LGB people.

Would you mind telling us what you - or whoever wrote that - mean by "those who claim to be homosexuals"?

psydrive · 27/12/2021 11:58

@Memeandmeagain

I don't understand how any of that spiel proves that a loving relationship between two adults of the same sex is wrong, or how quoting the Quran is going to convince the homophobic individual at OP's church.

Jumpking · 03/01/2022 08:29

Apologies for not having read the whole thread.

I'm a member of an evangelical church, and one of my leaders is SSA. He also works for this charity part time.

www.livingout.org/

We regularly have sermons which cover singleness, married life, how to love people well whatever their sexual, lifestyle, political preferences. Sexuality is talked about, but it's not the be all and end all of these sermons. Loving God better and one another better is.