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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Christianity & homophobia

280 replies

airforsharon · 12/12/2021 16:39

Hello, can anyone enlighten me re the specific bible passages that condemn homosexuality, and if there are others that counter that position? A relative voiced quite openly homophobic views this afternoon - he is a long time church goer & very involved with his church, his faith determines a great deal in his life so i'm assuming it's behind these views.
aUnfortunately they were said at a point it was pretty impossible for me to respond, and as my bible knowledge is limited i have nothing to counter it with, from a faith perspective.
It's troubling me especially as several of my closest friends are gay men, and my oldest daughter is a lesbian (relative doesn't know this).
If you are a church goer, what is your/your churches view on the subject? Are churches generally more accepting of homosexuality now, and if not, why not?
tia

OP posts:
BuanoKubiamVej · 03/01/2022 08:56

(i) you will never convince another person to change their mind on this subject via rational argument. Minds can certainly be changed but it's a gradual process not something that happens via persuasion.

(ii) the bible says virtually nothing about the concept of being gay as we understand it in our modern culture. The New Testament was written 2000ish years ago and the Old Testament 3-4000 years ago and culture was very different then. There was a general acceptance in numerous cultures that wealthy and powerful men would have a wife for bearing children and a variety of boys, eunuchs and concubines for pleasure. The passages that are chosen to condemn homosexuality could equally be read as condemnation of what was in the contemporary context generally exploitative and non-consensual sexual activity, not remotely similar to a committed relationship between two consenting gay individuals.

(iii) the bible says absolutely nothing whatsoever about lesbianism. If being gay and acting on it were a sin, it would be so for men and women equally so the lack of mention of anything to do with women in this context can only mean that it is talking about something else entirely.

(iv) St Paul is clear that the ideal as far as he is concerned would be for everyone to be celebate, but he acknowledges that most people can't live like that so agrees that this without the capacity for celebacy should get married. That seems to me to be equally applicable to gay people.

(v) There's a lot more in the bible about condemning having more than one sexual partner in ones lifetime. Whilst I don't think it's healthy to push that line of ethics (have seen some seriously screwed up situations caused by people trying to live by that principle) any church or individual that gets het-up about non-heterosexuality but doesn't expend similar effort at all the people who aren't remaining virgins till their wedding night is being very hypocritical.

psydrive · 03/01/2022 12:04

@Jumpking

Apologies for not having read the whole thread.

I'm a member of an evangelical church, and one of my leaders is SSA. He also works for this charity part time.

www.livingout.org/

We regularly have sermons which cover singleness, married life, how to love people well whatever their sexual, lifestyle, political preferences. Sexuality is talked about, but it's not the be all and end all of these sermons. Loving God better and one another better is.

Yes I believe @paws17 has already link to that organisation, which tells gay people they have to be celibate and single their whole lives. Its sick.
Catinabeanbag · 03/01/2022 13:36

Hmmm.... these are the same sort of people who will tell you that your identity shouldn't be based in your sexuality, but in Christ, but (often) in their biographies, are the first to put 'wife of / husband of / mother of / father of / married to a wonderful man/woman....'
Because it's not about sexuality at all.....

macnougat · 03/01/2022 15:28

@Jumpking

Apologies for not having read the whole thread.

I'm a member of an evangelical church, and one of my leaders is SSA. He also works for this charity part time.

www.livingout.org/

We regularly have sermons which cover singleness, married life, how to love people well whatever their sexual, lifestyle, political preferences. Sexuality is talked about, but it's not the be all and end all of these sermons. Loving God better and one another better is.

@Jumpking You haven't read the thread, but thought you'd come in here to push a group that tells people same sex relationships are sinful and harmful, and encourages them to tell their children the same.
Jumpking · 03/01/2022 23:45

Isn't the church broad enough to have all these opinions? To not be so critical of one opinion whilst pushing your own so strongly?

The length of the thread makes it clear there is disagreement. The debate in the church over centuries on this issue is disagreement. Mumsnet posters aren't going to come to a biblical conclusion...I got so bored with the polarised debate on it I couldn't be bothered to read on.

Surely it is better to promote loving each other better on earth and agree to disagree with the varied opinions on this matter than to rehash what can, and never will, be agreed on in this life.

PermanentTemporary · 04/01/2022 00:35

Well, an article on that Living Out website says exactly that Christians can't agree to disagree on this, that having loving sex with someone the same sex as you will cut you off decisively from God, no question. It's not exactly ambiguous.

It's just vile homophobia, despite the pretty design of the website.

psydrive · 04/01/2022 00:46

@Jumpking

Isn't the church broad enough to have all these opinions? To not be so critical of one opinion whilst pushing your own so strongly?

The length of the thread makes it clear there is disagreement. The debate in the church over centuries on this issue is disagreement. Mumsnet posters aren't going to come to a biblical conclusion...I got so bored with the polarised debate on it I couldn't be bothered to read on.

Surely it is better to promote loving each other better on earth and agree to disagree with the varied opinions on this matter than to rehash what can, and never will, be agreed on in this life.

It's not just a difference of opinion, it's taking people, including children and teenagers, that they should never have a sexual or romantic relationship if they are gay and that if they do they are somehow immoral and going to hell.
paws17 · 04/01/2022 00:53

@BuanoKubiamVej

(i) you will never convince another person to change their mind on this subject via rational argument. Minds can certainly be changed but it's a gradual process not something that happens via persuasion.

Very true on a human level but, in the context of becoming a Christian, it is the Holy Spirit who will conduct that work of conviction & renewal in the life of someone who comes to Christ, if we let Him. It is only with His help that any of us can become what we were designed to be & leave behind the things which formerly bound us in darkness.

(ii) the bible says virtually nothing about the concept of being gay as we understand it in our modern culture. The New Testament was written 2000ish years ago and the Old Testament 3-4000 years ago and culture was very different then. There was a general acceptance in numerous cultures that wealthy and powerful men would have a wife for bearing children and a variety of boys, eunuchs and concubines for pleasure. The passages that are chosen to condemn homosexuality could equally be read as condemnation of what was in the contemporary context generally exploitative and non-consensual sexual activity, not remotely similar to a committed relationship between two consenting gay individuals.

Yes, some make that case, and, in fairness, often out of a genuine & understandable wish to show love & respect to our gay friends. Unwittingly, however, this approach may only provide them with a reason to ignore the very clear message of Romans 1 vs 18 - 32, which shines a light on one likely reason for the apparent explosion of homosexuality across many world societies, including our own. (i.e. that God has effectively "given over" the disobedient to their desires.)

(iii) the bible says absolutely nothing whatsoever about lesbianism. If being gay and acting on it were a sin, it would be so for men and women equally so the lack of mention of anything to do with women in this context can only mean that it is talking about something else entirely.

Can I humbly refer you again to Romans 1 v 26 -27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

In this passage, female SS sexual relations are referred to here in the same breath as male SS acts, which are similarly denounced.

(iv) St Paul is clear that the ideal as far as he is concerned would be for everyone to be celebate, but he acknowledges that most people can't live like that so agrees that this without the capacity for celebacy should get married. That seems to me to be equally applicable to gay people.

Well it would be applicable if God's creation plan for human relationships in Genesis and throughout the rest of the bible included affirmation of same sex sexual relationships and marriage. Unfortunately, however, it doesn't, and so any pronouncement well-meaning Christians may make now which proposes that same sex relationships are entirely equivalent and equally valid in God's thinking is to dangerously overstep our authority, in my view.

The bible tells us that God-given marriage is a picture of the loving and sacrificial relationship between Jesus Christ and His Church. In His wisdom and sovereign position of authority as creator & Heavenly Father of all, He chose to provide a woman to be the perfect life-long partner for a man in His version of marriage - and, for a husband's love and care of their wife to be the perfect representation of Christ's love for the church. All of these relationships are "heterogeneous" in character - not homogeneous - They are composed of different, not similar components - God & humankind; Husband & wife. This, put simply, is why a SS relationship, whether loving, monogamous, permanent or not, cannot, with apologies to all who feel or live or experience things differently, completely fulfil God's brief of being a perfect model of Christ's love for His Church.

Given that "society" has recently chosen to institute its own laws & freedoms concerning same sex marriage, many Christians may wish that God, too, was now supportive of SS relationships and sexuality. However, we can't force Him to adopt that position against His own nature, creation plan and word. If people seriously want to do business with God, it's got to be on His terms, not ours, irrespective of whether that fits in with our own humanistic notions of right & wrong - and of God's character - in the 21st century.

PermanentTemporary · 04/01/2022 01:45

I've now deleted another few angry messages. I think it's sad that you can't see that these posts are not respectful or loving but alienating and argued backwards to fit your own prejudices. (Heterosexuality is good because the two people involved are different? Really? Would you like to try and follow that one a bit further and see where you get to?)

Unfortunately the only possible next step for me was to leave Christianity. But I'm glad not everyone feels the same and can stay religious while accepting new revelation.

BuanoKubiamVej · 04/01/2022 07:09

@paws17 I'm not going to reply to each of your ooints because refer to point (i) in my previous post I know I won't convince you and it would be a massive waste of my emotional energy. But I am a Christian, and I used to be homophobic until the work of the Holy Spirit helped me to develop my faith until I was able to better reflect God's love for every aspect of creation (including homosexuality which is entirely natural and therefore no one who is homosexual is doing anything "unnatural"). Your faith journey may bring you on a similar path one day, but nothing that happens through reading and writing earnestly-intended posts on the internet will help anyone develop their faith and trust in God's love. That has to happen out there in the real world, interacting with real people, helping those in need and listening to them, preaching the gospel with actions not words.

Jumpking · 04/01/2022 07:41

@PermanentTemporary

Well, an article on that Living Out website says exactly that Christians can't agree to disagree on this, that having loving sex with someone the same sex as you will cut you off decisively from God, no question. It's not exactly ambiguous.

It's just vile homophobia, despite the pretty design of the website.

I would imagine that you'll find websites as well advising the same things of any single person.

Living out's biblical view is that all sex outside marriage is wrong.

Many people in many churches are living amazing lives without any sex because they have consulted the Bible, read around for themselves and concluded what they want to conclude. They also recognise that society makes far too much of sex and sexuality and that it really isn't the be all and end all of a fulfilling life.

Others read around and conclude differently. That's great for them. If someone is a Christian, then they should go to the Bible for guidance and draw their own conclusions, considering the guidance from the elders around them.

Living Out, like all campaigning bodies, present their stall, provide what they see as evidence and promote their way as the right way. And I'm thankful we live in a country where you're allowed to accuse them, and a large proportion of Christians in this country who believe sex outside marriage is wrong, of being homophobic.

voldr · 04/01/2022 11:06

Many people in many churches are living amazing lives without any sex because they have consulted the Bible, read around for themselves and concluded what they want to conclude. They also recognise that society makes far too much of sex and sexuality and that it really isn't the be all and end all of a fulfilling life.

And many people also are told from a young age that if they are gay then they have to either never have a loving, fulfilling relationship or go to hell. It's a harmful message.

If people want to be celibate, gay or straight, fine. But telling gay people, especially young people, that loving healthy same-sex relationships are immoral is homophobic, and fucked up.

mordinvasnormandy · 04/01/2022 11:33

This is the agreement that people have to sign before they can attend one of livingout's homophobic "courses".

www.eauk.org/resources/what-we-offer/reports/biblical-and-pastoral-responses-to-homosexuality?utm_source=old_eauk

We encourage evangelical congregations to welcome and accept sexually active lesbians and gay men. However, they should do so in the expectation that they, like all of us who are living outside God’s purposes, will come in due course to see the need to be transformed and live in accordance with biblical revelation and orthodox church teaching. We urge gentleness, patience and ongoing pastoral care during this process and after a person renounces same-sex sexual relations.

🤢🤢🤢

They're also trying to stop other churches who might want to from marrying same-sex couples and ordaining openly LGB ministers. So much for live and let live.

speakout · 04/01/2022 14:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

psydrive · 04/01/2022 19:27

lol at the previous post being deleted but people allowed to promote anti-gay groups.

PermanentTemporary · 04/01/2022 19:33

I read this and I feel genuinely broken hearted for this man. This is the homophobic element. A horror for his own feelings.

paws17 · 04/01/2022 19:35

@BuanoKubiamVej

Thank you for your thoughtful contributions to this discussion. May God bless you in your continuing walk with Him.

voldr · 04/01/2022 20:26

@PermanentTemporary

I read this and I feel genuinely broken hearted for this man. This is the homophobic element. A horror for his own feelings.
The worst thing is he tries to spread it to others. That's when he and his ilk lose my sympathy.
Catinabeanbag · 04/01/2022 20:32

Many people in many churches are living amazing lives without any sex because they have consulted the Bible, read around for themselves and concluded what they want to conclude. They also recognise that society makes far too much of sex and sexuality and that it really isn't the be all and end all of a fulfilling life.

Paul said that he'd rather people didn't get married, but if they couldn't control themselves then they might as well be married. Funny how you never see churches espousing celibacy for straight poeple, and telling them they can't be in relationships.
It's only the lesbian/gay community who have that imposed upon them as a requirement of being accepted in a lot of evangelical churches.
Divorce is now also seen as more acceptable, as is sex before marriage,....clergy abuse of children went on for decades.... churches have, time and again, 'forgiven' abusive clergy (both of children and in their marriages) whilst shaming victims..... but it's all the gay people who get the grief.
Life & identity is only ever 'not about sex and sexuality' when it's about gay people. The hypocrisy is ridiculous.

Catinabeanbag · 04/01/2022 20:52

@paws17
I'm also not going to go through each of your points seperately because I know I won't convince you otherwise - as you won't me - but I will say the following:
Ps 139 tells me I am fearfully and wonderfully made. And if, as was drummed into me when I was a child, God doesn't make mistakes, then I (and my sexuality) are not a mistake.
The passage in Romans is an interesting one. It talks about women having exchanged their natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
For me, being attracted to women is natural. To exchange that for an 'unnatural relationship' would mean having sex with men.
Plus, the passage talks about people having turned away from God, and then God gave them over to 'unnatural desires'. I became a Christian when I was about 7. I realised I might be gay when I was about 14. In that time I hadn't turned away from God, or made idols. I spent over a decade convincing myself (unsuccessfully) that I wasn't gay because I thought it was wrong and God would punish me.
The moment of 'enlightenment' came about 12 years after that (so a total of about 25 years trying to reconcile being gay & christian) that God knew I was gay, had always known it, and loved me anyway.
Since then I've never felt more secure, and my relationship with God is the best its ever been.
You said It is only with His help that any of us can become what we were designed to be & leave behind the things which formerly bound us in darkness.
I would say that the thing that bound me in darkness was pretending I wasn't gay, and it's actually been accepting myself as God made me, which has helped me become what I beleive I was designed to be.

paws17 · 04/01/2022 21:01

@Catinabeanbag Thank you for your post. I admire your openness and honesty about your own walk with God. It certainly isn't my job or right to judge anyone else who can talk so genuinely & persuasively about their own spiritual journey. God bless you.

Catinabeanbag · 04/01/2022 21:29

@paws17
Thank you - appreciated. Equally, I'm not here to judge anyone for their views or beliefs. I 'get' the more evanglical view, having been brought up with it. I understand it, though I don't agree. My parents would still believe it, I think. But I wouldn't ever think less of anyone for their beliefs or refuse to talk to them - I've had to get along with my parents, after all!

kmblark · 05/01/2022 14:08

@Jumpking

Do livingout do their course in churches that perform same-sex marriages and have LGB ministers? Or do they keep their hate to their own ground?

JulieYS · 25/03/2022 20:38

Hi Tia,
Good questions. Just remember that God is love - so yes, he does condemn the practice of homosexuality, but doesn't necessarily condemn the person. There were many in the first century who changed their ways, and became acceptable to God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

But that doesn't mean the Bible promotes gay hatred. Like Jesus, Christians show love and respect for everybody.

But essentially, the Bible does condemn the act of homosexuality - and not for no reason did God record those passages in the Bible. If we dissent one passage from the scriptures, then we are picking and choosing what we want the scriptures to say, rather than accepting it entirely as the word of God. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2 - that could mean not just adding/taking away from the actual Bible itself, but also detracting from or minimising certain Biblical passages that we don't like.

But I truly believe that, if we follow God's moral standards, we will be much happier, not only in ourselves, but also in our relationship with God.

Gynaesaur · 25/03/2022 20:51

not for no reason did God record those passages in the Bible.
What reason, then?
Following on, what justice is there in bestowing a small percentage of the population with same sex attraction, condemning acting on it as sinful, and then leaving those people without the opportunity that heterosexuals have for a satisfactory romantic and sexual relationship without being considered sinful?