All you atheist parents wondering how to broach the religion topic to your kids listen up!

[Rhubarb]

I'm a catholic and I teach my kids about all religions. I explain that some people believe different things and some people don't believe at all. I tell them what the Bible says about creation and what science says.

I tell them what my personal beliefs are but I encourage them to make their own minds up. I answer questions with "well this is what I believe but you might think something different".

I take them to Church and they know about the religion we follow, but I do encourage questions as far as I can bearing in mind their young ages.

So what I say to you is this. Don't put a barrier between yourselves and religion when it comes to your kids. Arm them with information and let them make their own minds up. If you push them a certain way, chances are that they'll reject it later on in life. Whereas if you add your support to whatever they decide to believe or not, it will give them the confidence to choose their own paths.

You may be disappointed in their choices but don't try to influence them too strongly one way or the other.

So says me.

Rhubarb - don't you find it telling that despite your begrudged indoctrination into Catholicism and your continued disdain for your mother's religious devoutness, you still choose to attend a Catholic church and use that particular denomination to endorse to your own children?

Do you really think there is much chance of your children making up their own minds?

Wrinklytum, explaining the crucifixion to a three year old? Well, I suppose it depends if you've approached death as a topic at all.

I guess you could just say it's because some people like to remember that a man called Jesus was hurt on a cross, perhaps? Kind of like a statue.

'That's a good point harrisey and I think this is where religious tolerance can never truly be a 2 way street.

If you're an atheist/agnostic, it's easy to say that whatever people believe is right for them. But if you're religious, by definition you're certain that what you believe is true for you AND for everyone else.

Those 2 world views are pretty much mutually exclusive IMO. '

I don't agree- because perhaps instead of tolerance etc we should sue the word acceptance?

Acceptance of the right of a person to choose another faith is a wonderful thing- not to tolerate (which creates rather begrudging imagery at times), but accept. And to value those beliefs as contributions to a wonderful mix.

I also think teaching fallability to children is important- the ability to say I may be wrong- and this is a good context. To have the strength to say' This is what i beleive, for me it absolutely works and I use it to shape my life, but the reality is that nobody truly knows and anyone can be wrong' is a wonderful thing. I cant see how anyone can beleive in reinacarnation (the only reason I am not a Buddhist) or resurrection, but that doesn't mean it didn't or doesn't happen- only that its is not something that I believe happened. IYSWIM.

Message withdrawn

Peachy, the difficulty with your approach, for someone with strong beliefs, like a staunch atheist, or a definite theist, is that different beliefs are not acceptable.
There's a big difference between accepting someone despite their beliefs and accepting their beliefs.

I don't disagree about the fallibility thing - I'm always happy for my kids to know I'm fallible, but I can't really pretend to my kids that I believe our faith is possibly wrong, or 'just one of the equal options' because that's not what I believe anyway, so I'd be fibbing to them. I'm entirely happy for someone with no defined belief system to do the same. I think honesty is pretty important with dc.

Sue I can see your point, but I do think its good to teach kids that there is no certainty- for a start your kids may have doubts later on and will need your acceptance possibly.

I aslo thinks its fine to say in my heart i truly believe this is definite, but others feel the same way about their faith too- iyswim. Indeed kids need to know that i think.

I understand that some faiths feel other religions are unacceptable (not all -Hinduism and Buddhism often acept Christ and his teachings) but I also genuinely believe that kids need to be raised to understand that there are other people who feel as vehemently as themselves, and they shouldn't just be written off as wrong, just different.

Where we were raised there were a lot of Plymouth brethren who were as fervent as anybody in their lifestyles and beliefs. As kdis we didnt notice the differences but as teenagers we were often separeted, by chance as much as anything I guess. Anyway I remember one girl choosing to give up her faith- got a short skirt, cur her ahir etc- and we all thought, her parents won't have her. They did, they still collected her, they still loved her- theya cepted it was her choice as an adult (we were about 17 I guess, FE college). The Brethren went up massively in my opinion with that reaction, because at the same time a friend was rejecting catholicism and having to live in a bedsit (although that reflects mroe on her parents than faith I think)

haev ewe left the ducks now?

yeah, but that's exactly what I'm talking about, Peachy, with the Brethren.

If our dc decided to completely reject what we believe then I would be utterly heartbroken, given that I believe it's a very serious thing to do, eternally speaking. But I wouldn't kick them out, or suddenly become nasty with them, that would be utterly ridiculous - I'm not nasty to people who don't believe the same as I do if they're strangers, so I wouldn't do it to my own children, iyswim.

And teaching them to be certain about things doesn't equate to teaching them to be nasty themselves. Unless you had a belief system that included being nasty as a matter of course. Which, granted, some people do appear to have.

I dont think there is true acceptance, or tolerance, or whatever you want to call it, from any side. On this thread I'm not getting it from the atheists, or rationalists, or whatever you call yourselves ( I reckon I'm pretty rational, except when I have PMT )

I've had my beleifs here relegated to being 'silly', the degree I am currently 2/3 of the way through talked of as 'knitting fog' (its a theology degree, and it is philosophically, spiritually and academically hard!).

Its as hard for theists to talk to atheists as the other way round. There are huge parts f my life you will never get.

Madamez - would you really deal with your ds with 'affectionate mockery' - I woudl personally never mock anythign my dc's beleived in. I dont mock themnow for beliving in Santa or the tooth fairy or their own invention, the Lego Fairy (who hides thelego bits they are looking for!!), and would not do it as they are older.

THis is partly because my parents think my beleifs are just a 'phase', and treat me with what I am sure they think is affectionate mockery, while I have been a serious CHristian for 20 years and find their inability to accept this very hurtful when it is in my face. They are still hoping I will 'grow out of it'. It has meant there have been occasions, very important to me, such as my recent baptism, that I couldnt tell them about. Would you really want this to happen with your ds?

Dont worry abot the degree Hrissaey- we get the same about our world religiosn one, complete abuse sometimes (drain on the country etc etc etc)

Funny how the art students never get it

Can I just confirm that I started this thread in a jokey manner in response to onehundredtimes post on another thread. So if I come across as arsey in the OP, it's because I was responding to onehundredtimes.

Ekra - if you read my posts clearly you will see that despite my indoctrination I am trying to give my own children a full education on all religions including atheism so that they do not feel that catholicism is the only option open to them.

I believe as a catholic in all kinds of stuff you would not. I also have a lot of faith. I tell my children about my beliefs and as far as possible I do bring them up as catholics. HOWEVER I want to encourage them to ask questions and explore other faiths, including atheism. I cannot give them faith you see, that comes from their own experiences. But I do want to give them the freedom to think that they can question and not accept things as fact without knowing the origins.

I do not believe in blind faith like my mother. I do not believe in forcing my beliefs down their necks. I do accept that I might be wrong in my choice of religion. I do think I am more open minded than my mother ever will be.

So no Ekra, I don't think I am a hyprocrite. Of course I am indoctrinating my children to a certain extent, we all are, we can't help it! But I am doing my best to ensure that they know they can question and research themselves with my full blessing. And I am actively trying to help them do just that.

Rhuabarb - I'm sorry that you inferred from my post that I was calling you a hypocrite. That was not my intention.

I'm not sure how I can explain it better. You say you belive in god and jesus but not all parts of Catholicism - in yet you choose to associate yourself most closely with the Catholic church. Is that just coincidence or is it because there is a familiarity about the Catholic church, gained in childhood, that pulls you back to that particular denomination?

It may well be that you are giving your children equal exposure to all churches and religions and that your children won't associate a familiarity with any particualr religion or denomination should they wish to be long to a faith when they are older. In most families, this is not the case.

Ekra, I choose catholicism because it most closely represents what I believe in. As I said earlier I also enjoy the solemnity of the Masses, I find it relaxing and spiritual.

I don't like the hard core right wing of the catholics but then every religion has some of those. I don't like the way many catholics simply believe without questioning why, but again many religions have those too. When I have questioned tbh I have found the catholics to be very good. The priest has always made time to talk to me and I've come away feeling more enlightened. Whereas when I talk to the Jehovah's or Mormons I just feel frustrated and confused.

Don't get me wrong, if my kids choose catholicism I would be thrilled. But what I think is very important is that they don't just go along blindly, accepting everything as truth without question.

I also think that if you do try to push your child one particular way, they are more likely to rebel against that when they are older.

'If you do try to push your child one particular way, they are more likely to rebel against that when they are older.'- Rhubarb

Phew. That lets us off a lot of sensible parenting then.
No need to advocate keeping clean, learning, eating sensibly, respecting people. They will only rebel. And they do - teenagers.

As ever, even in what is a fairly good-natured debate of its kind (!) there is occasional musunderstanding on this thread about what being an atheist actually means.

Many religious folk are so wound up in their religious observances that they sometimes think there must be equivalent atheist observances: that we get together for meetings, have atheist walks and atheist picnics, want atheist schools, and spend time specifically instructing children in the doctrine of atheism.

Nothing could be further from the truth. For most of us, being an atheist simply means you don't have a religious, supernatural or superstitious dimension in your life because there is simply no need for it.

You are no more likely to bring up the subject of "not believing" in God than you are to bring up the subject of "not believing" that the Earth is flat, that the Royal family are lizards or that the moon is made of green cheese. Because they are patently absurd beliefs.

I'm all for children learning about religion in schools - it's the background to understanding the thinking of many cultures. It's impossible to study Greek mythology, for example, without knowing about the Greek gods. But you can do that without believing that they exist.

Harrisey: while DS is young enough to belief in tooth fairies, Santa and all the various deitties of various myth systems, I'll treat them all alike. When he's older, if he opts to follow one of the myth systems, I'll treat it the same as I would were he to retain a belief in the Great Pumpkin or that his teddy really talks to him beyond puberty - ie not take it very seriously.
I wouldn't want to prohibit it, or get cross about it, but gentle teasing should soon see off any unhealthy interest.

The impression I got from the original post is that you're a better parent if you expose ( i.e. attend church services and read religious scriptures) your children to lots of different religions than athiests who don't feel inclined to do that.

So, if your Dc turns out to not believe in god, that is OK because you have exposed them to religion but if my child never believes in god, that is not OK because I haven't given them a breadth of religious options to choose from.

But I am probably reading too much into it..... I'll scuttle away now.

I tend to find it's actually the atheists and agnostics I know who are better informed about religion and religious history - because they are interested in it from a cultural perspective, and have had to do the research to get their arguments straight. Those who espouse one faith, and one alone, are so wrapped up in that they know a lot about their own faith but little about others.

Your mileage may vary.

No no not at all. The OP originated from a question from ahundredtimes, who is atheist, wondering how to broach the subject of religion to her kids.

I do think you should educate them about religion as it is a cultural and important thing to know. But obviously if you don't believe it would be pointless dragging them to churches. That is something I do as a believer.

And I do realise that atheists do not attend any kind of ceremony.

I don't find that at all, UQD. I think there is a certain type of person who is interested in religion from a cultural perspective, but I've not found people like that are overwhelmingly atheist or agnostic. Having said that, most people I meet who are like anything at all are agnostic to a certain degree anyway.

I've have met plenty of atheists who honestly thought they had a wide knowledge of religion because they knew all the bits in various religious texts with which to start arguments. Not saying you're one of those, but I have to say that doesn't really count as a breadth of knowledge to me.

I'm not "one of those", although I'm not one of those who claims a broad knowledge, either.

I have, on the other hand, read the Bible.
Christians' reactions to this over the years have ranged through: surprise, scepticism, disbelief, suspicion, admiration (of the Doctor Johnson/women preachers variety), and the opinion that I have not read it "properly" because I did not have a Christian on hand to help me understand it.

I've enjoyed responding to Christians who tell me to "go away and read the Bible, it's all in there" with , "well, I already have, and it ain't for me."

chuckle

I don't think it makes much difference, really. I've met many a Christian who'd never read it all anyway. So, I suppose you can add 'indifference' to your list

I thought it was only fair to read it if I claimed not to believe what was in it! I ought really to do the same with the Koran, Rig Veda etc, but life is short......

No, I agree, it's a good thing to do. Regardless of what you believe, the bible has underpinned quite a bit of western culture. Like Shakespeare, and most everyone knows a bit of that
I gave my last copy of the koran away to a friend. I found it quite frustrating reading, tbh. Lots of odd hadith in the footnotes. I do like the Tao Te Ching, as it happens.

Se I like the Qur'an, but I do also like the Bible and Guru Granth sahib to read, most of all I like the dhammapada and heart sutra though . I am a sad individual

Most people on our course now are agnostic or atheist. Many were religious when its atrted, only 2 (one Sikh lady, one slightly odd Christian who practises as a witch but beleives he is a reincarenated messianic Jew ) still are.