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Original poster

Heaven/ hell

267 replies

Cheekyandfreaky · 05/05/2018 23:36

I was listening to a ‘this American life’ podcast about a priest who was denounced as a heretic because of his ideas about Hell. He essentially came to a realisation that he didn’t believe the way hell was written in the bible and decided instead that humans create Hell and it exists here in the world we live in (the example he cited was the genocide in Rwanda).

I am not religious, I don’t believe in anything and have been very staunch in my non-religious beliefs, but, I found myself nodding. What if we are in both heaven and hell right now? I feel like I’m going mad just thinking about it because I’m not s Christian and the faith I was born into doesn’t acknowledge the existence of either but I feel like I believe something all of a sudden.

I guess I’m wondering a) could we be in heaven and hell right now and b) have you ever randomly felt like all of a sudden, out of nowhere that you believe something? C) does this belief even prove anything, I mean I don’t really know what to do with it?

OP posts:
PatriarchyPersonified · 08/05/2018 18:08

Vitalogy

Its been bingo for your responses as well

That's true, but that because I never get an answer from your side of the argument. Still haven't.

Take my point about Christians becoming 'incredibly vague' in the face of criticism in order to not be pinned down on a position and therefore escape being proven wrong.

Use yourself as the measure and you can prove it

You've made that statement in at least threes different debates we have both been involved with on this site, yet never once explained what you mean. Please can you do so, or you run the risk of entirely proving my point?

HonkyWonkWoman · 08/05/2018 18:30

I think Patriachy doth argue too much!

WiseOldElfIsNick · 08/05/2018 22:17

Use yourself as the measure and you can prove it

What on earth does that mean? What am I measuring?

Walkingdeadfangirl · 08/05/2018 23:13

Has anyone ever explained why any omni-benevolent god would put people in eternal hell. It wouldn't be a good god if it did. Paradox. If it dont make sense it isn't true.

wendiwoowho · 08/05/2018 23:40

Perhaps it's us who put ourselves into Hell and nothing to do with God.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 09/05/2018 01:06

Perhaps it's us who put ourselves into Hell and nothing to do with God

Hmmm that would mean there isn't a good god, because you cant create a hell and be good. Also you cant be a good god and create humans knowing you are choosing to send them to a hell you have created.

The only logical conclusion is that either the god enjoys human suffering or it doesn't exist.

Vitalogy · 09/05/2018 05:37

PatriarchyPersonified If you'll not hear the truth no one can tell you. The ego has to be broken down at some point enough to let it in.

What on earth does that mean? What am I measuring? The truth is within yourself thus you're the measure.

OtterInDisgrace · 09/05/2018 05:43

The Bible is a book, just like 50 Shades of Grey is a book.

It was written by a human, or rather, several humans. all with their own thoughts, beliefs and prejudices. That some people still see it as the word of God just blows my mind.

PatriarchyPersonified · 09/05/2018 06:34

Vitalogy

Right...

So thanks for proving my point.

🤦

wendiwoowho · 09/05/2018 07:46

*Hmmm that would mean there isn't a good god, because you cant create a hell and be good. Also you cant be a good god and create humans knowing you are choosing to send them to a hell you have created.

The only logical conclusion is that either the god enjoys human suffering or it doesn't exist.*

I don't believe God created Hell, it's not a place, it's a state of being.
Hell is not gaining eternal life. For me it isn't a burning fire pit, where people are tortured and a red horned dude strolls around. I believe Hell is just death, how most non-religious people view it.

Or maybe it might be like in Lucifer, where it's humans own guilty which is Hell.

Vitalogy · 09/05/2018 14:17

So thanks for proving my point. I answered it here: The truth is within yourself

Catinabeanbag · 09/05/2018 15:18

Hmmm that would mean there isn't a good god, because you cant create a hell and be good. Also you cant be a good god and create humans knowing you are choosing to send them to a hell you have created.

Or you create humans with free will, and they're free to chose to believe in you and have a relationship with you or not.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 09/05/2018 16:52

Or you create humans with free will
Would be great if we actually had free will, we dont get to choose most things in our life. Certainly dont get to choose our beliefs.

I wonder how one goes about choosing to believe in someone nobody has ever met, who has never phoned, texted or sent a birthday card.

Not even sure how I have the free will to chose an eternity in hell.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 09/05/2018 22:39

Claiming that you were 'given' free will negates the whole concept of free will. By definition you cannot be granted it. What if you don't want free will?

WiseOldElfIsNick · 09/05/2018 22:41

The truth is within yourself thus you're the measure

What truth exactly are we talking about here and what measurements should I be taking?

Vitalogy · 10/05/2018 04:39

That we're spiritual beings having a human experience.
What have you done so far on your spiritual quest. I wouldn't want to be covering old ground.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 10/05/2018 05:05

What do you mean by 'spiritual beings'?

polkadotwellies · 10/05/2018 05:08

OP I don't see the link between seeing 'hell' and 'heaven' on earth; which I thought was well known and desire for religion.

Hell is suffering and heaven is relief/joy? Really they are manmade dualistic concepts and simplify the world. There is no fairness though so why would it be spiritual?

polkadotwellies · 10/05/2018 05:15

Claiming that you were 'given' free will negates the whole concept of free will.

I had it drummed into me we have freewill. Now I think reducing our entire existence down to only freedoms is quite silly.

Vitalogy · 10/05/2018 06:55

The eternal self not the material world.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 10/05/2018 09:49

Ok, so what evidence is there for any kind of existence outside the material world?

wendiwoowho · 10/05/2018 11:43

Love can't be seen, there's no way to measure it and you can't prove it. But you know it's there cause you feel it.
Religious people can't prove their faith but they feel it too.
I understand why this seems strange to someone who doesn't, but having a faith is much more than reading the bible and going to church.

speakout · 10/05/2018 11:50

But love is an abstract concept, something that humans create. Like hope, or excitement, it is an emotion

It does not exist outside of the human brain. It is an abstract human construction.

I don't think that is what christians are saying about god at all.
He apparently exists externally to the human mind.

Wendi if what you are saying is that god is simply an invention of the mind and a man made construction like love or humour. then we agree.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 10/05/2018 12:30

Christians are saying that God is not a thing. A recent book by a Robert Shortt is reviewed here by Rowan Williams www.theguardian.com/books/2016/mar/24/god-no-thing-rupert-shortt-review-response-new-atheism

picklemepopcorn · 10/05/2018 14:17

Greenheart, that's brilliant! I'm going to order it.