Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

touchy subject i know...

227 replies

loopylou6 · 15/05/2007 11:58

but what does everyone think about what the dream pyschic has to say about madeleines dissapearance?

OP posts:
madamez · 18/05/2007 10:25

Squonk: what science does your DP specialise in? And what things does he think cannot be explained yet?
Of course, scientists in the past have been wrong about things. But they experimented, did tests, examined the evidence and, when necessary, changed their minds according to the evidence. Believers are often too dumb to get their heads round basic scientific methods, and even the intelligent ones, when confronted with factual evidence that what they are claiming is bullshit, whine and pout and claim that "science doesn't know everything".

Flamesparrow · 18/05/2007 10:25

Well said StG.

I am a scientist.

I believe that we don't know everything (like the sun/earth comment). The earth also used to be flat and the atom was the smallest thing, and people regularly died of now treatable diseases.

Are you all seriously so arrogant that just because something hasn't been discovered/proven yet that it is wrong?

Flamesparrow · 18/05/2007 10:46

Quick Q to UQD, Madamez etc...

What do you hope to achieve by these "debates" (see what I did there, putting it in quotes because I don't believe its what we're having )? Has anyone ever turned round to you after one of your ranting insulting sessions and said "Ah, I see the light, I am a moron and my beliefs were clearly stupid. I will now live a life dedicated only to known facts"???

madamez · 18/05/2007 11:00

Flamesparrow: the OP asked people for their opinions. So people gave them. Do you think that, just because the majoirty opinion on a thread is the opposite to the opinion of some readers of that thread, those holding the majority opinion should keep quiet about it?

Flamesparrow · 18/05/2007 11:06

The first handful of posts are about the op.

The rest are squabbling about psychics and calling anyone who believes in them a moron.

SaintGeorge · 18/05/2007 11:08

I gave my opinion on the OP.

I didn't make rude, belittling comments about other people's beliefs. I am perfectly happy to accept that yourself, UQD and others do not have religious beliefs. I am not happy with the way you insist on putting across your opinion.

Although I see your speciality seems to be rude and often offensive posts so I don't know why I am wasting my time on you anyway.

SuperSleuth · 18/05/2007 11:32

I think Madamez and UQD need to revisit the meaning of the words "faith" and "belief".

As for evidence, please provide proof positive to St G, Flamey etc that a) there is no God, and b) that people absolutely 100% dont have psychic abilities.

Tangible evidence.

Other than "there isnt" or "its not true". It is simply that you "believe" there isnt as there is no evidence to prove there is, yes?

The others, in the absence of any proof that there isn't - believe there is...not so different, is it?

SuperSleuth · 18/05/2007 11:34

Im hoping those last two sentence made some semblance of sense

Shrinkinglily · 18/05/2007 11:38

You know those pictures and if you look in a certain way the picture becomes 3 dimensional? Until you look in a certain way at it, the picture appears flat. There is scientific reason why we can see these pictures in two different ways.
I don't mind being called a moron actually because I do think that the people who can't see the 3-d image are missing something special....

Shrinkinglily · 18/05/2007 11:45

hee hee

cab · 18/05/2007 11:47

I'm with totaleclipse: "I am on the fence with psychic, but if it were my dd that had been abducted I would certainly try this avenue."

Also thought the Brian drawings someone else posted about were interesting: www.briansprediction.com/dd/5441.htm

Doesn't matter what we think to be honest.

Shrinkinglily · 18/05/2007 12:11

Oh yes forgot what the op was.

cab · 18/05/2007 12:16

Sorry lilly that was a bit rude of me - just had a few mins spare... p.s. I do have something missing cos half the time can't see those pics in pics.

Shrinkinglily · 18/05/2007 12:47

I was just trying to illustrate that to me life without God would seem 2 dimensional.

When people lose a loved one, they are vulnerable. A friend of mines dh disappeared in the mountains. For a long time she took hope from a psychic who said he was still alive. Eventually she had to accept her loss. I'm sure the psychic meant well....and she may have been right but she couldn't bring him back anyway.

UnquietDad · 18/05/2007 13:46

Okay, so certain comments and total misunderstandings are really starting to annoy me now.

"Just stop bloody insulting people who do believe."

If someone used emotive language to attack something I believed in, then it would be my natural response to offer evidence that I was right. Not simply to say "I believe, go away."

"scientists used to believe that the Sun went round the Earth."

They did. And now they don't.

"The earth also used to be flat and the atom was the smallest thing, and people regularly died of now treatable diseases.Are you all seriously so arrogant that just because something hasn't been discovered/proven yet that it is wrong?"

Absolutely not. You miss the point. When evidence is offered which is counter to the accepted consensus in the scientific community, everybody doesn't suddenly say the new evidence is right and the old wrong. But the new evidence is made available. It's published in papers and journals. It's discussed in conferences and seminars. It's debated on websites. And slowly, very slowly, if the evidence is compelling, a new consensus is reached. That's what happened with Phlogiston, for example. It may well also be happening with global warming.

"Has anyone ever turned round to you after one of your ranting insulting sessions and said "Ah, I see the light, I am a moron and my beliefs were clearly stupid. I will now live a life dedicated only to known facts"?"

First of all, it's not ranting. I may use the odd bit of emotive language, but that's because I'm trying to get a more sensible answer than "I believe it, therefore it is true."

The point is that scientists never deal in absolute truths - but they damn well need evidence before they change their minds - or, more importantly, anybody else's.

So, in the absence of evidence that psychics (there I'll stop putting them in quotes if it annoys), God, reiki, crystal healing, indigo children, etc, etc, actually exist, I'll not believe in them. And the reason I keep saying it is that it depresses me that otherwise intelligent people can't see the sense in doing that.

That doesn't mean you have a closed mind. I have adjusted my thinking on lots of things over the years: socialism, global warming, multiculturalism, to name but a few matters. But the point is that I did so not because of other people's faith in them, but because of weighing up the evidence presented.

"I think Madamez and UQD need to revisit the meaning of the words "faith" and "belief"."

In what way? I know what they mean, I just don't think they are a very clever contribution to a debate.

"As for evidence, please provide proof positive to St G, Flamey etc that a) there is no God, and b) that people absolutely 100% dont have psychic abilities."

This is something which theists always ask sceptics to do, in the full knowledge that it is a logical impossibility. It's like asking a circus animal to jump through a hoop, and when it fails to do so, arguing that it must be lame.

You cannot prove the NON-existence of anything. All you can do is look at the evidence for its existence. You cannot prove that I don't have a six-foot invisible gerbil called Wayne living in my back garden, but as the only evidence is my assertion that I have, you're pretty safe to assume it's not true.

"When people lose a loved one, they are vulnerable."

Lily, exactly - and they are open to manipulation and suggestion.

Sorry that was long, but all those points needed answering.

southeastastra · 18/05/2007 14:31

lordy, what exactly do you want then? proof? you know no-one can give you that

fryalot · 18/05/2007 14:32

UD: Do you want to come and live in our house for a few weeks? You'd have your proof then. Until you do, you'll just have to take my word for it.

UnquietDad · 18/05/2007 14:33

If I want anything, it's exactly what I've said below. Not proof. Just for people to weigh their beliefs against the evidence.

UnquietDad · 18/05/2007 14:34

squonk, why would that be proof? And how do you know I would accept it as proof?

Shrinkinglily · 18/05/2007 14:40

UD Someone else can't give you proof but if you wanted you could have a go at 'praying' sometime . Various books give some ideas of how to do it and don't worry, your brains wouldn't fallout!

southeastastra · 18/05/2007 14:49

i couldn't sleep for ages after my mum died. i said give me a sign that you're around (i know this sounds daft) the mirror fell off the wall.

when my babies were small i used to worry about them and would will them in my head to make a noise. they always did.

people have their own beliefs. isn't that better than having no guidance in life or no thought that there are just some things in this world that cannot be easily explained away by science. i suppose you believe that when you die that's it. nothing.

what's the meaning of life if that's true? isn't it easier for the human race to have some guidance to life even if it is through worship. if the world was run by science what would the world be like?

my dp rants about this all the time and has no beliefs whatsoever, which i find somewhat sad.

UnquietDad · 18/05/2007 14:56

Believe it or not I used to go to church. I used to "pray". Why on earth would I do it now? (I can send people my good thoughts and best wishes, but that is hardly the same thjing as I am not invoking a divinity.)

There was absolutely no correlation between the things people prayed for and the things which actually happened. Of the sick people prayed for in church every week, some got better. Of course they did. Others sadly didn't.

One group of people prayed for week in, week out by churches up and down the land is the Royal Family. If prayer actually did anything they'd be happier and healthier than any group of people of comparable wealth and prvilege. I see little evidence - that annoying word again - of that.

Sorry to keep insisting on evidence. Boring, I know.

Evidence that prayer works, please. I will listen.

Shrinkinglily · 18/05/2007 15:17

I don't pray much but when I do...alone and somewhere quiet, I feel Gods presence and its very powerful and overwhelming...you could say that it's all in my mind and meaningless. To me obviously it isn't.

Even if prayers don't seem to be answered, the fact that someone acknowledges a higher force/intelligence/being seems healthier and more peaceful than trying to carry all burdens alone. ie the pray-er may get more benefit than the prayed for.
But if you feel you have help your resources don't run dry because they are coming through you not from you. (or something)

Aloha · 18/05/2007 15:18

Why would the world be 'run by science'? How odd! Science - in the terms of this discussion - is all about finding out hows and whys of how the world came into being and how it works. You know, stuff like gravity, light, why volcanos erupt, how life evolved. 'Science' doesn't make this stuff happen, it aims to find out how and why it does happen. I think that's a wonderful thing.
Of course I think that when you die there is nothing. I don't think my old cats are running around in some kind of catty eternity. It's fine. I find every religion's depiction of eternal life utterly chilling actually. HOrrific.

Oh, and of course scientists realise they can't explain everything. But they keep on trying. The idea that everyone should say, 'we will never understand X so we must not try' is so strange to me. I am sure the Aztecs or Ancient Britons, say, would have been pretty convinced that it would never be possible to understand the solar system, or discover atoms.

ShinyHappyPeopleHoldingHands · 18/05/2007 15:20

UQD, it is very much the same thing if you stop thinking of God as a "divine power outside ourselves" but as something within us all.

Swipe left for the next trending thread