touchy subject i know...

[loopylou6]

but what does everyone think about what the dream pyschic has to say about madeleines dissapearance?

i was refering to the 'All psychics are either con artists' with the not all comment iykwim!

Ah sorry south, misread your post

I don't see what religion has to do with it.

As always, sceptics/skeptics are accused of being intolerant when they merely demand evidence which, in any other sphere of life, would be expected.

I don't accept "miracles" or "psychic" stuff because there is always a more simple explanation. There is no need to re-write science, when a logical explanantion can always be found - see my "child breaking a cup" analogy below.

You can be as sceptical as you like, but for some Spiritualism is their chosen religion. Your constant generalisations such as 'they are all bloody fakes' is somewhat intolerant IMO.

I am not asking you to believe in anything, just that you have a little more tolerance for other people's beliefs and are a little more polite when discussing them.

Okay, maybe my language is a little confrontational, but I'm so sick of having to "respect" these so-called religions which have absolutely no proof for their completely off-the-wall claims.

I'd offer respect, if any were SHOWN, frankly, for my intelligence - I cannot believe that in this day and age so-called intelligent people are ready to swallow all this stuff hook, line and sinker. I mean, why is it so difficult to put themsleves in a situation where they say, "okay, you don't believe what I believe. That's fair enough. I'm going to give you a chance to see what I can do, and first of all we will establish to the satisfaction of us both that there is no trickery or misleading or deception involved."

That's all we ask for!

I recommend reading about "Project Alpha", which exposed this sort of thing ages ago.

But why should people have to prove their faith to you?

I am not a Spiritualist but I do believe in psychic abilities. I have had my own, personal proof and I am happy with that. I repeat, I am not asking you to believe me no more than I am asking you to believe in the existence of the Christian God, or Allah, Ra, etc etc.

I do object however to comments such as 'so-called intelligent people'. What the hell do you know about my, or anybody elses level of intelligence?

Because I'm sure you are intelligent, and yet everything I hear about this kind of thing flies in the face of intelligent, rational discussion.

If I claimed that I was hearing voices, or that there was an invisible pink porcupine in my back garden, or that I could read minds, I'd be OUTRAGED if anybody took me at face value. I'd expect to be asked to PROVE it. That's all it is. Nothing to do with religious beliefs - merely asking for evidence. As scientists do all the time.

I am on the fence with psychic, but if it were my dd that had been abducted I would certainly try this avenue.

i'm one of the biggest sceptics going but feel you are being unfair here uqd.

i don't believe in any religions at all really but will certainly respect people who do.

I am probably being a little intolerant. But no more so than anybody is when faced with things for which people refuse to provide objective evidence.

Richard Dawkins is always accused of intolerance. He's had it up to here with people who refuse to argue properly with him, though, so I hardly blame him. My brain is also small compared to his and so is lilely to explode with frustration more quickly.

If I am a Labour voter, Is it "disrespectful" to ask the Conservative candidate to provide good, solid reasons why their way is better, rather than just accepting "it is"? If I prefer Doctor Who to Star Trek, I expect that a Trekkie will provifde decent reasons why their programme is better acted, scripted, directed, etc, than mine. (They'd still be wrong, but they would at least have argued it with evidence!)

It's a bit like being told over and over again "the moon is made of green cheese", and everty time you say "but, it isn't, and NASA has these pieces of moon rock which prove it", you're told "ahhh, but I BELIEVE it is and I have personal expereince of lunar cheesiness which you can NEVER know fully, so I am right and you are wrong."

well that's the lure of the paranormal isn't it. can't be explained and can't be proven. which doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist or doesn't make it interesting to explore.

But no one is asking you to believe at all, let alone to believe that it is in anyway better than the alternatives.

Hence I can't see the relevance of your analogies.

SEA - "lure" is exactly the right word. You're quite right that people are attracted to it for this reason.

It's not surprising - hard science can be rather boring at times, as the reason for something happening can often be frustratingly dull.

Where we differ is that I tend to assume something doesn't exist unless I have evidence.

But people wanting the approaches of "psychics" and "dreamers" in police investigations to be considered is asking us to take them seriously, i.e. believe that what they are doing is possible without chicanery.

i'm on the fence. but do believe that some people are more sensitive than others.

Sorry for delay, had to go to work.

You are missing my point UQD.

Strangely, the people asking are not the same people who are happy to say that they are psychic or that it forms part of their belief system.

I think the dreamers are clutching at straws or are indeed conmen/deluded souls/frauds etc.

That does not mean that all psychics are the same. That is my objection, your (and other peoples) generalisations.

Tell me why all "psychics" are not the same then.

I see entirely what you are trying to say about "psychics" choosing to perform on TV and why you don't like that.

But tell me what other "psychics", who for you are not charlantans, claim to be able to do, and back it up with evidence.

Give me solid examples of "psychic abilities" which have been demonstrated by people in public - and which can't be explained away by deliberate trickery of the sort which is used by Derren Brown, James Randi and others.

(I know you are under no obligation to dom this but you must see that, if you can, it helps people to be more sympathetic and less dismissive.)

They don't claim to be able to do anything and they don't perform in public so bit difficult to supply you with an answer to that one. And again, why should I? I am not trying to convert you.

For me it is a matter of faith. All along, all I have asked for is that you stop lumping everyone together and saying things like:

"because they are all bloody fakes and scared of being shown up"

or that mademez should refrain from things like :

"All psychics are either con artists, nutters, or well-meaning idiots"

Why can you not accept that not everybody believes the same things? I can. The difference is I don't go around insulting whole groups of people because I don't think the same as them.

I all think all psychics are either well meaning but mistaken, deluded or charlatans. That is, I'm afraid, what I think and what lots of other people think too. It has nothing to do with being 'intolerant'.

All right, so can you give me an example of a "psychic ability" which you have experienced, seen demonstrated or been present at - and tell me why this cannot be explained away by trickery, or - as Aloha says, more kindly than I have - by simply being mistaken.

Do you know what UQD, I just can't be arsed (there you go, more reasons to mock).

When someone provides me with definative proof of the existence of God, Allah or little green men on Mars, then I will give you my personal proof.

Although the word personal should sort of give you a bit of a hint really why I don't want to divulge.

All right, your choice.

I don't believe in any of those other things either. (Although little green men on Mars are the most likely, if I had to pick one.)

It isn't intolerant to think other people are wrong is it? I mean, otherwise everybody would be intolerant, by definition. Unless we all had the same beliefs, or lack of. You can think someone is wrong, and challenge them on it, without be intolerant. I tolerate atheism. I think it's wrong, but I tolerate it.

Oh I bloody give up.