Christian chat thread continued

[Dutchoma]

A place to share and chat about our funny (and not so funny experiences) in and out of church.
Did anyone say coffee? That would be good

I don't feel as glum as all that, though attendance figures make really hard reading. I'm in a rural team with some tiny churches and one bigger one. I haven't looked at the October attendance figures but my guess is that we're fairly steady or declining very slightly. But that's not the whole story, not by any means. One of our very tiny churches is in a village where there are only 45 dwellings. In that context an average attendance of 20 looks like quite a big proportion of the population. And in our largest church we have the entire infants school (ie all the children in the village between reception and yr 2 excluding any who go to private school) in church every week, plus all the teachers/TAs, plus a good proportion of parents. We systematically tell the whole Bible story every year and all the children know and use the Lord's prayer. We do other things that mean quite a lot of people in the village pass through our doors over the course of a year. I know that doesn't necessarily translate into increased Sunday attendance and that's the challenge, to invite the people we reach into the journey of discipleship. On the other hand, I was at a large HTB-ish city centre church in Cambridge at the weekend, and it was much less full than I thought it would be. Granted they have three services on a Sunday (though one of them only in term time for students) but I wasn't staggered by the difference in attendance figures between them and us. It was more, of course, but considering the resources they have it wasn't that much more. It's a real slog, though, swimming against the tide of the surrounding culture - just thinking of John Humphrey's dismissive comments about Thought for the Day as an example. There probably isn't any alternative to keeping on slogging, I mean, I don't think there are magic answers. The answer isn't getting rid of liturgy, or doing messy church, or having more Evensong, or what have you. It's probably all of those things (and many more) and keeping on keeping on, perhaps concentrating energies a bit more than we are doing, and waiting for slow gains. And keeping ourselves going in the midst of it all without turning inwards and losing heart - that may be the hardest bit of all.

The other that I think must be making a difference is that the people who go/ went just because you do are dying, and with them a culture of 'cultural' church attendance. But those who go now generally go (or are more likely to at least) because they are believers, or at least seekers, and for them church is about faith rather than duty or habit, or assumption. I wonder really in fact whether church attendance figures say anything much really at all about faith.

I was interested to discover that 4 of our current PCC are middle aged reverts /converts like me - 2 men and 2 women - my church is growing by between 5 and 10% year on year, so it's not bleak everywhere.

We are seeing slow grow after a long period of decline in my little part of the C of E. It happens with the boring stuff of being welcoming, doing the occasional offices well and serving the local community. I have two well resources churches wither side of me in my city which can be depressing. I have been rejoicing in the church gate getting mended after a year. If you have a caretaker then it gets done straight away.

Yes - we need to look at the good signs. I was in a low mood yesterday! But we did a womens day today and 100 came, it was lovely. Our church is big and there is growth, so it's misleading when people just say the church is dying out. It's great to hear about your congregations too, the growth and signs of life. Edd, I think you're right about churchgoers being more real with faith now and it being less a 'thing you do', more something you want to do when you have belief. This is reflected I think as well in the national surveys which seem to gloat in the statistics which show that faith itself is down at a low point among the general population - its because people now tick the faith box if they actually believe rather than hold to a cultural 'I am CofE' notion. It's a different thing and more honest as to what people actually believe - better to know, I think.

And yy niminy - it's about keeping on keeping on, isn't it. We are indeed swimming against the tide and face ever more vitriol as people turn against the idea of faith. I didn't hear John Humphreys comments but am well aware of his views, he can be very outspoken. And you're right, there is no magic formula. Church plants are good and cathedrals are good and fresh expressions are good and high catholic masses are good, if all done to the glory of God. It's keeping doing these things with authenticity and genuine welcome and inclusiveness. It's never losing hope, never giving up on the great hope we have because it's hard. Jesus never said it would be easy...

There is much growth to be seen. Sad when there's decline, but much to be learned too. Interesting to look beyond the UK too to areas of the world where there is huge growth, like in south America and China. What is it that's accelerating growth in these places - is there less apathy? More opposition? There certainly has been historically in China. Gods church flourishes under the worst of persecution - there's exciting growth in places like Iran right now, but necessarily kept under wraps...

A downturn in the economy would increase church attendance I think. Once they’ve closed all the libraries may be the only free inside space left.

I have PMS and am failing to think straight. This morning at church I dropped a trayful of cups and saucers, and during the Eucharist I responded to "the Blood of Christ" by saying "thanks" instead of "amen". Really not my day.

I think thanks is fine! Hope the PMS is over soon.

This is for Madhairday and anybody else feeling down - it was given to me by a child at one of the schools I work with. It makes me smile!

In case it's not readable - it says 'Go into the world and preach the good news to everyone', and the two men on top of Mount Everest are saying "Jesus is alive" "Yay!"

I love, love, love the fact that the child knew absolutely what the good news is.

Love it, niminy!

Everyone doing ok?

Hello double! Ok here. It's quiet around here at the moment! Hope everyone is okay.

I was feeling down about the state of the church the other day, esp the c of e, after reading a report about declining attendance.

An old church building in the city where I live was close to the hospital and, having been closed for many years, was used as a clinic. A new hospital was built and the old one was demolished. In the summer, builders arrived at the old church. I wondered what it was going to be used for and it has now been reopened as... a church.

Hello friends. Just wanted to share that I have written my first essay in over 25 years! Yay. Should you want to discuss the theological characteristics of Anglicanism anytime I am your woman! :)

That's exciting, disappearing!

Edd - yay, congratulations on the essay! I'm actually very interested and happy to hear your views anytime! is that theological characteristics as in what the church was built on - say Lutheran and Calvinistic theology of more how it is played out today?

I'm frustrated to be quite ill again. Feel grim.

Hello everyone (delurking). I was so pleased to find this thread. I'm new to MN, a New Yorker and an Episcopalian, which is the American Anglican denomination, as I'm sure most of you know. I'm on the vestry of my parish and was a church treasurer for nine years.

I grew up RC, left there in my 20's and joined the Episcopal Church in my 30's and I love the liturgy and teachings. For those who aren't familiar with her, I love the writings of Barbara Brown Taylor, an Episcopal priest, author and amazing preacher. Here are some quotes from some of her works:

Barbara Brown Taylor

Her collection of sermons (one of many) Bread of Angels is a touchstone in my spiritual life and available on Kindle.

It's lovely to meet you all.

I really like Episcopalian churches, Miss. A lot of them seem to combine tradition, awe and a sort of openness and progressiveness which I would love to see more of in the CofE.

Sorry you are ill, MHD. I hope things improve and you get to enjoy nice things.

Your essay sounds interesting, Edd. What's it for?

And do any of you have any good suggestions for something to read over advent?

BroomstickOfLove the ECUSA is very open and progressive, and have been very open to women as clergy and in other leadership roles. As you probably know we are having a bit of a tiff with the rest of the Anglican communion over the ordination of openly gay people.

What I find ironic is that churches have been ordaining gay people for centuries, they just didn't like it discussed publicly.

Hello. I have been attending my local church as my children have been very involved with the services lately. We have actually become good friends with the vicar through the school so we feel quite comfortable going along. My husband is open minded but doesn’t believe in god. Our children have not been christened, we thought it best to raise them to make their own decision. My youngest is very enthusiastic about church but I think she may be too young to make up her mind just yet (7). I have been thinking about being confirmed since we have been attending regularly and my eldest daughter has expressed an interest. She is 13 so I think she is old enough to make that decision. She is not keen on being baptised however. Im guessing this has to go beforehand? Can you tell me a little about what to expect at a confirmation please?

Looneytune253 I assume you are referring to Church of England. I'm an American Anglican (Episcopalian) and our for rules for rites like this can be different, but generally not in significant ways. You can read a bit about confirmation here:

www.episcopalchurch.org/library/glossary/confirmation

The normal requirement is that to be confirmed you must be baptized first, either as a child for as an adult. The confirmation is a ceremony of public commitment to the church and will run something like this:

www.bcponline.org/PastoralOffices/confirmation.html

But you have a great advantage here in that you already know the vicar. Have a word with him or her about your situation, concerns and questions.

I think confirmation for young people who are so inclined is a good thing in that it gives them a church "home" that they can go back to as they feel the need later in life, so well done mum.

Welcome, MissC and looney tunes, really great to see you

Tea or coffee?

Feeling a bit bruised by another thread so hiding out here. Apparently my arguments are unconvincing repeatedly. Bit stung. Maybe I shouldn't engage when I'm sick with another infection

Thank you, Madhairday. It's lovely to meet you too. Coffee please, Kona or Jamaican Blue Mountain if you have any.

So sorry about your other thread going badly. Sometimes it's best to just let go.

Are you the keeper of the flame for this thread?

Welcome Looney and MissConduct. I’m afraid the coffee is just Traidcraft, but it is served in proper cups, not polystyrene throwaways. Looney, yes baptism goes before confirmation and with people who are able to understand the meaning of the sacrament (so anything up from seven) just one ceremony.
To add a personal story: ds wanted to be baptised at 7, we were in a Baptist church at the time and the minister said no, he was too young. To this day he has not been baptised, his wife was baptised as a baby and so was his daughter, but he has not. He is a fundation governor at a CoE school and they don’t seem to mind.

His sister was baptised at 14, promptly denounced her faith and has not been a practising Christian since. Go figure. Church has a lot to answer for, so I would say: strike the iron while it is hot, have a word with the vicar and see what they say.
MHD for goodness’ sake, come out of that thread, I had a quick look at it, you really should know better by now. . You and your lungs have been in my prayers, just praying that we can keep you out of hospital this Christmas again as has, thankfully, happened before. Praise be!

What do you do within the service though please. I am terrible in front of a crowd. If my daughter was to be baptised too it would be about the ceremony and not the whole ‘let’s invite the whole extended family and have a big party’ kind of thing. Would we have to choose godparents? I’m not sure whether to put her through it. She isn’t very religious but I fear she just wants to be involved.

The confirmation service can be in the local church or it might be in a cathedral with lots of churches bringing their people. You need a bishop to do the confirming so it depends a bit on whether your vicar knows a retired one who will come to your church or whether you join in with the deanery with the bishop of your area. That will be a bigger affair. What happens is that you go to the front with your vicar or the person who has done the confirmation prep and the bishop puts his hands on your head and says 'God has called you by name and. Made you his own, confirm O Lord your servant with the Holy Spirit'

What you can do is have baptisms in the same service so it might be that your daughter can be baptised and you would be confirmed. At seven your daughter is old enough to make up her own mind about faith and may not want Godparents but talk to your vicar to see what they suggest.