Christian chat thread continued

[Dutchoma]

A place to share and chat about our funny (and not so funny experiences) in and out of church.
Did anyone say coffee? That would be good

I'm so sorry Edd but so glad it was a good ending with her family around her.

I am so sorry Edd but glad to hear that you were able to travel to be with her.

I'm so sorry Edd, but glad she had lots of blessings in her life and was surrounded by her family and their love for her final days. ❤️

So sorry to hear that, Edd 🌹🌹

Edd sorry to hear that. Good that you all were able to get there in time for DP to share her mother's last days.

Oh, Ed I'm so sorry.
I'm glad you could be there for her

BES
The seminar in the Bible Society tent on Friday was all about lamenting and its pkace (or lack of) in modern worship.
30-40% of psalm content is lament but only 2% of songs recorded on CCLI returns have any lamenting content, according to the speaker.
he said it means that sadness and lament is basically "not allowed" in happy clappy churches (yep, he used that phrase )

And that lament is good and necessary to build our relationship with God -praise is empty without using lament - we lose a lot of depth when we ignore it.

You know I agree nickel as we had a chat about it

I disagree about it not being allowed though. I think we're actually getting a lot better. We sing some songs of lament at church. I think some more fringe churches probably frown on it but some are doing better, thank goodness. We need more of it, more balance. While we live in brokenness we need to lament, to cry out to God. How long, o Lord? How long?

As I said to you I've written a chapter on it in my book. I feel passionately about it.

I'm glad you're doing it and see its purpose :)

It was happy clappy he used, not "not allowed" - the speech marks were my own to paraphrase the idea of it being missed out. He didn't say that, but he said that it is definitely missing from a lot of modern worship - that they're often called "celebrations" and therefore it is given no place.
it was a very interesting talk and my synopsis is very clumsy

Not clumsy at all. I do think it's missing in a lot of places and yy to celebrations. Time to mourn and time to dance and all that. I'm going to get the recording - that and the Pete Grieg talk.

Were you in Impact when they had a live Skype link with a lady with ME? That's my friend and I missed that and was gutted. She's so lovely.

I heard a good sermon on lamentation after Orlando last year. Sam Wells @ st martins - it'll be on the website somewhere.
Also read this article recently. Really looking forward to reading your book mhd

Love that article Edd - echoes much of how I think of it.
Thanks re my book. Editor ringing me this week

I agreed with all of that article but it made me a bit twitchy. It did this thing that I've come across quite a bit of talking as if a certain kind of Protestantism (what you might also call non-denominational evangelicalism) is the whole of Christianity.

Actually the Church as a whole has huge resources for lament. The Christian year includes two seasons where lament and penitence are central, where the Lectionary deliberately includes psalms of lament. The Church has profound liturgies of confession and repentance, litanies of lament and sorrow. These same churches are also aware of and in touch with their own history and history more generally. There are rites of individual and corporate penitence.

Yet all these things have been the kinds of tradition that was supposed to be stuffy and churchy and irrelevant. And now lamentation has been rediscovered as this new thing that no one has been doing.

Also I have a Grove booklet from at least ten years ago called 'Lament in a church of praise' which tackles exactly the same issue as the speaker at NW.

Just looked at it again, so the article starts "Somewhere along the way, we modern Christians got lament wrong: we began thinking of it as optional instead of a required practice of the faith. "

I love being characterised as an old-fashioned Christian - or simply ignored.

Good point niminy. I think the thing is that a lot of churches - perhaps especially of the more evangelical tradition - have forgotten what those seasons of penitence and lamentation are all about. I think a lot of churches still do it really well, though, and have a lot to teach others. Somewhere along the line some have chucked the baby out with the bathwater sadly.

Not old fashioned at all, so sad that some see it this way...

I think we all have so much stuff to learn from each other.

I was thinking g last night about what a lovely thing it would be for you, me and Edd to go to On Fire together. I so hope it can happen.

That does sound awesome. When and where is it?

In April at High Leighs Centre in Barnet - details here

It did this thing that I've come across quite a bit of talking as if a certain kind of Protestantism (what you might also call non-denominational evangelicalism) is the whole of Christianity.

Yes. All the time. But especially in the US evangelical Christian blogosphere. I read almost everything with a kind of shrug about how little some writers seem to stray from their own tradition. I'm sure it's not just that group, it's just that they are by far the most prolific on the interwebs so you meet it there most often. But, as you say, we have much to learn from each other, and I take a lot from all kinds of Xtian writers, even when I do think 'but that's not true of me /us/ my church' or when I despair at the generalisations!

Me too (re OFM). We'll have to see nearer the time, but I'm doing a year's course next year which includes a couple of weekends so is likely to mean that any additional time away may be tricky to negotiate. (Or not, as I think you both know DP and I had just had two weeks trial separation before the dash to see MIL, and frankly I have no idea what happens next).
2019 could be easier?!

Ofm looks good and I love High Leigh! It's a bit on the dear side though so maybe a day visit or one overnight might work for me. I'm keen to see how a charismatic sacramental conference works, it sounds lovely and a bit challenging for me which is only a good thing...

Just looked at the prices. Golly! That is expensive.

Have you come across the Sanctum Collective? Their conference (which was last week) sounds interesting.