Re-opening the Muslim Tearoom?

[perfectlybroken]

Salaam/peace, I haven't seen a tea room thread for ages. Would anyone be interested in resurrecting it? Perhaps we could redecorate, and have a new range of yummy cakes!
The previous tearooms were places where all were welcome, and we could chat about parenting/marriage/Islam stuff. Visits from those we questions about Islam were also welcome.

Someone tweeted this and I think it is very apt from a feminist view point and maybe a muslim viewpoint?

needabreak you said that better than i could have i found myselfnodding to all your points in your last post. mayhem i think we muslim women are beset by two patriarchies on either side. Using our bodies to score points off each other or worse. Piss the other off. i dont want my girls to wear hijab and catch the heat and grief i have these many years. i cant bear them going through all that. All the hijabi style videos and fashion shows and style tips wont make up for that sheer hostility from quarters you dont expect.

But then again. At the same time. Hijab leads to a special sisterhood and bond that is close to family. And i have received help and support from quarters i never expected either. Some days i feel thats all i keep it on for. That sisterhood.

can i ask a question that might sound so silly (i'm sorry if it does!)

in the muslim/islamic culture is it not common for the fathers to be at the birth of their children? i ask as i had a long stay on the post natal ward when i had DD. i saw lots of muslim ladies come and go and not once did i see any man! they were always visited by ladies. i'm talking 10-12 different families. i also work with an asian family who just had a new baby and the mum was dropped off at hospital by her husband and he went home! she laboured half alone but then her mum came. also how do they choose a name? the babies seemed to be nameless for quite a while. thank you!

People targeting Muslim women for violent assaults is not the fault of the Muslim women or what they're wearing. There's always outrage when any crime is seen to blame the victim. I feel the same about blaming a woman for wearing niqab for being assaulted.

There have been many Muslim pregnant women who have been beaten up by white men and lost their unborn babies just because they wore hijab.

I would bet my last tenner that once Muslim women stop wearing hijab baby woman who looks Muslim will next become a target.

It's the violent thugs who need to be penalised not the women minding their own business and going about their daily life.

I know lots of women who wear niqab some run their own businesses even they're each and everyone of them an amazing, strong woman with a lot of iman.

Guilty it's fine to have fathers there. However in the Indian culture so it's not a Muslim cultural thing at all.

The mans famiyl get all hysterical that he shouldn't be present at the birth as it will traumatise him 🙄

When I had my DC with ex he had to lie that he hadn't been there for the birth as in laws would have been outraged.

It's a backward Indian thing, fathers tend to remain outside during the birth in hospitals or did about a decade ago don't know if it's changed now.

When I hear of my 70 year old aunt being bullied and harassed by some spotty youth with a badge and gun for having some hair sticking out, I hate it and what it stands for. How dare a man tell a woman this? How is this prostitution? Why not point his bloody gun at gropers and gawpers?

We are lucky to be able to stick two fingers up to it and question it's validity.

I feel that covering the face is too much. It really is a barrier that seems to says that you don't want to mingle with 'other' people'.

See mavis I don't see the difference between that Iranian spotty youth harassing a woman for having hair showing and British teenagers shouting abuse at a niqabi who is trying to go about her business in the supermarket. They are also not doing it because of women's rights but it is plain old xenophobia. You say niqab is too far I have seen people say that about burkini a swimsuit. I have seen people say that about hijab. In fact some people objected to Nadia Hussein on Bake off because of the fact she wore a headscarf saying the BBC shouldn't let her on wearing clothes affiliated to an extremist cult or whatever. You try to take out the more overt symbols like niqab but for some people any visible representation of islam is a problem. I saw a video where a 16 year old Muslim girl was punched in the acknowledgement of the head by a middle aged manfor wearing hijab. Another woman talked about her fear after having her hijab pulled off when she was out shopping on the high street. I have had people scream at me Taliban. I can assure you I don't wear burka or niqab. This was when I was 15 walking home in school uniform. So I agree with fuzzy that it is the thugs, xenophobes and racists who should be penalised by the law not the women wearing niqab. Whether they wear it or not there will still be these kinds of attacks on muslim women.

However I do feel like it is a risk to wear niqab that is in my opinion unnecessary. I say this as I have friends who wear niqab some of whom are quite tough and trade insults with those who dare think they are a pushover who will tolerate verbal abuse. But another niqabi friend of mine who is too afraid to go out of her house on her own with her baby out of fear of being abused. I don't think niqab was intended to put women at greater risk of being attacked. In Islam scholars have always looked at what is the benefit or harm in any particular situation. Does it bring greater harm or benefit to women who wear niqab. I think that should be discussed. I hope that makes sense.

There isn't anything in Islam that forbids men from being at the birth of their child. It's a personal choice. Older men are more old fashioned probably like the older generation in the UK and would probably not be present at the birth of their children. My husband was there at the birth of my children but I would have rather have just had my mum.

*Punched in the back of the head.

Don't know what happened there. Here's the clip it is quite graphic so be warned.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=GKp0jybcra8

Just to be clear I don't support banning niqab but I do feel a discussion needs to be had in the muslim community about what is the purpose of wearing it in the West and whether it causes more benefit or harm to the wearer and the community. I didn't use to think like this but my opinion has changed over the years.

I think women who want to wear it should have the freedom to choose.

It was said Islam began as something strange.
And it will return to being strange the way it began. So give glad tidings to the strangers'

A lot of imams and shuyukh have given fatwas stating there is no harm in removing the niqab/hijab if you feel unsafe wearing it.

But why should we, it's slippery slope first the niqab then hijab then walk around in skimpy outfits or your not integrating and eat pork and drink alcohol.

Why should Muslim women's freedoms be curtailed, why should we accept being lesser than our non Muslim counterparts when we contribute equally if not more to society? I pay taxes I work my arse off I adhere to the law.
That is more than many non Muslims do, so why should I have lesser rights than my non Muslim neighbour?

And if I concede to having my basic rights eroded what kind of world am I leaving for my children?

No, just no.

Assalamu alaikum everyone. I have been enjoying reading the thread.

I am really against the banning of niqab. At least on the streets anyway. I think maybe banks and other similar places could maybe require people to identify themselves.

People leave the house everyday in wigs, loads of make-up and various other states of disguise, nobody says anything about that. And I also really hate when people say that anyone could be under there, even a man. There are plenty of biological males in this country that wear make-up and appear female or have cosmetic surgery to do the same but nobody is banning those things.

Also, did anyone hear of the passing of Junaid Jameshed, alongside several others. May Allah forgive them all.

guiltynetter I'm not sure generally, I know specifically in my husbands culture it is unusual for men to be present and it is very much a time for the women. In some ways it is quite nice. It shouldn't be taken as the man being disinterested, Muslim men in my experience are very involved fathers.
My husband was present at my request, but actually, it was so culturally alien to him he was quite uncomfortable with it, and therefore not that useful!

fuzzy and boys24 you are right but we are living in the Age of Anger. and because of that politicians like trump et al use muslims as a scapegoat to misdirect the western public's anger away from the failures and excesses of capitalism and neoliberalism. far easier to make a law to ban the niqab guys then it is to ensure jobs for all. making oneself the defender of the nations values is cheap as chips. nothing to do with housing, education, just 'this is untenable the way they all huddle over there!'.
just like in muslim countries where the leaders use convenient scapegoats to turn peoples anger away from their failures of government.
who catches the heat of not conforming? its women like in mavis post for not convering enough, or the burkini clad woman ordered to uncover by armed police on the beach.

Spot on. My family the say that laws get stricter over there when the economy is in a mess. Granted,they are arsey with me too (but not as much).

And someone further up said about wearing it and why is it not up for discussion. Grandma would not wear a scarf outside of a Muslim country. Why? Because she said that the point of it was so that everyone looked the same - so that you weren't standing out.

"laws get stricter over there when the economy is in a mess" - absolutely. thats a great way to put it. i reckon that happens the world over. Cameron's regular 'the muslims lack of integration' speeches would always correlate to unpopular laws the government were trying to push through that week. i could time it almost to the day on some issues eg benefit reforms, i needed only to look at what the agenda was in the House of Commons as the media would focus on the muslim story! its why i stopped going on mumsnet around the time of the last election because the dog whistling the prime minister and his cronies in the media were doing about muslims to win the election was ridiculous. to contrast between namby pamby liberals in labour and the tough hardline protector tories. and it was filtering to this website when i was only coming on as escapism not to have to deal with all the world's grimness! luckily i feel its calmed down abit here in the uk alhamdullillah/thanks to God, but i feel sorry for muslims abroad!

perfectlybroken my DH was also intensely uncomfortable through my labour but i wanted him there to put him off the idea of 6 kids. it was always '6 kids' '6 kids' right from day 1 lol. and yes it worked and did put him off lots of children hehe. just kept apologising to me instead!

labour that's so funny. I thought I might let dh stay home and look after the kids next time. But I do love the sight of him cuddling a brand new baby so maybe not!

Labour why'd he want six children? Did you ever try to tell him how many you wanted and compromise?

I suppose it doesn't matter now he's changed his mind.

Jumuah mubarak everyone

I did hear about Junaid Jamshed. I didn't know much about him but I can see from my friends in the Pakistani Community that he was a big personality in Pakistan and that they mourn his loss.

Inna lillah wa inna alaihi rajiun

Truly to God we belong and to Him we return.

Yes I heard about the PIA airline crash so so sad, he must have left behind his children, both him and his wife passed away, innah lillah wa innah liey hai rajeoon.

I'm not Pakistani, however I grew up listening to Vital Signs, and then listening to Junaid's nasheeds, it is indeed very sad, for him and everyone who lost their lives.

I didn't hear about the crash, Inna lillahi wa Inna ilayhi rajioun.

Soo 'muslims like us'. What do you sisters think? Hit, miss, or maybe?

I watched it. Can't say I was impressed. But interestingly, it showed exactly what is happening in the Muslim world today nicely. We are fighting amongst ourselves. When there is no unity amongst us then how can we live in peace? What's happening in Syria is a big example of this. I mean the fight over the shopping, how stupid and petty! it was like I was watching Big Brother, but this is what is happening in Muslim communities in real life! I was shocked watching this. Why so greedy over a few onions?

The extremist guy was like someone out of Four Lions. A complete unenlightened buffoon. I was waiting for a message at the end of the credits that he was back in belmarsh. Ffs.

Naila; why was she even there? She didn't seem to be following Islam at all. It was like she had her own religion. Islam is a way of life, and she hadn't incorporated even 1 into her life!

The old lady kept talking over everyone.

I don't think any of them came out in a good light. for a non Muslim watching I think they wouldn't have found out what real Islam is. These people were a rude, loud, obnoxious bunch. I couldn't relate to any of them. Very very embarrassing.

Hi. Sorry to intrude. Lapsed Catholic here.
Can I ask a question about the hair coverings?
There are two little girls who pass my window often. They are approximately 4 & 6. They wear the head cover thing.
It's unusual to see such young children wearing them. Are they Muslim?
It's quite funny to watch them as they hop skip jump and leap down the road like every other child lol, but I worry that it could leave them open to bullying.
I find them amusing to watch as I almost expect absolute decorum from a woman with a veil but watching these two is like watching whoopi Goldberg in Sister act!

Question no. 2.
I personally find African Christians to be very critical of western or white non practising ex Christians. It's like they are judging me. Do you find a similar attitude to your faith?

Hope my questions don't offend.

Hi myoriginal, your questions are interesting. Girls of that age are not required to wear hijab, as the requirement starts with puberty. There are several reasons why they might be:
-they may be on the way to the mosque, and parents will often encourage girls to wear it there, as a way of getting used to it.
-if not, there parents might be encouraging them to wear it at a younger age, again so they get used to it.
-they may want to wear it, to Muslim girls it is what there Mummy wears, and there big sister, so they are often quite keen! In fact my little boys like to wear mine!

I hope they don't get bullied for it!

As for your second question I don't really know, sorry! As a strict practising Muslim I certainly don't judge those that are non-practising, or even those who have left Islam. The wheel is always turning and only Allah (God) knows the ultimate outcome of people's lives.

labouroflove I didn't watch the programme but have only heard about it 2nd hand. Probably a good thing as it may have tempted me into backbiting, which we're not allowed to do even if people are on TV

What I will say is that whenever I have watched these programmes, they choose people who will clash with eachother in order to make good viewing!