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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Re-opening the Muslim Tearoom?

210 replies

perfectlybroken · 29/11/2016 18:07

Salaam/peace, I haven't seen a tea room thread for ages. Would anyone be interested in resurrecting it? Perhaps we could redecorate, and have a new range of yummy cakes!
The previous tearooms were places where all were welcome, and we could chat about parenting/marriage/Islam stuff. Visits from those we questions about Islam were also welcome.

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LittleStripyBee · 02/12/2016 17:27

What a lovely little corner of mn this is. Rubbish Catholic here, the church I go to now is C of E and I am much more at home there, hope you don't mind me popping in, I've always found these threads make me smile.

fuzzywuzzy · 02/12/2016 17:43

Mavis that's fashion lol, you can buy huge scrunchies to give you volume.

Different regions/ages wear different styles. I throw my hijab on and leave my house ASAP no big volume here, some take aaages to do up, I love watching hijab tutorials on YouTube but only wear mine wrapped around my head with no fuss.

originalmavis · 02/12/2016 18:14

It reminds me of the skulls archaeologists dug up in South America with the elongated backs and some people decided they were aliens - until they realised that some cultures shaped babies' skullls with wood and straps to get that long pointy shape.

Shadowboy · 02/12/2016 18:17

May I visit? My father is Muslim but my mother orthodox Christian.

I love to keep both religions in my life.

I've never been in the 'tea room' what sort of discussions take place?

mudandmayhem01 · 02/12/2016 18:26

The big hijab look seems to be part of a bit of cheeky but fairly innocent teenage rebellion, the girls with the highest hair seem to he the ones pushing the schools light make up only and no trainers rule, teenagers are teenagers whatever culture or religion!

CivQueen · 02/12/2016 18:34

Hello,

I have a rather thorny issue but have just seen this pop up in active and thought I might be able to ask your opinions on something.

My father keeps posting offensive and racist things online. One if which was a link to this site below in a post claiming all of Islam is sexist:

www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/women-worth-less.aspx

I'm trying to argue with him, but he keeps pointing out that these are quotes from the holy book, and that every Muslim believes men are better than women.

Are there any passages or examples I could point him to to prove it?

(Sorry for interrupting the tea and cakes!

CivQueen · 02/12/2016 18:35

Sorry just read that back 'to prove to him that's not true' of course.

perfectlybroken · 02/12/2016 18:40

CivQueen, there are most definitely things to contradict his arguments with, I'm in the middle of tea and bedtime but will try to post some details later!

Oh the headbustle, yes it's awful, and definitely teenage rebellion. I think its meant to be suggestive of luscious locks beneath, but is probably achieved with old socks!

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CivQueen · 02/12/2016 18:42

perfectlybroken thank you, that is very kind.

I tried googling but essentially just seemed to come across dodgy sites like above.

I don't want it to remain unchallenged though.

perfectlybroken · 02/12/2016 19:41

Yes, there is a lot of dodgy stuff about Islam on the internet. This seems like a good summary though:
www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2510

A couple of general points, Islam sees women and men as equal but different. Because of current Western ideas, we are predisposed to have alarm bells ringing if the differences between men and women are highlighted. My personal view is that I am far more able to be equal to men by having my femininity acknowledged and valued. For example, I am able to work, but have the right to demand of my husband that he supports me financially, to enable me to look after my children. He cannot make that demand of me.

Another point about quoting from the Quran, is that the Quran was never meant to be used that way. A common saying of Muslims is that they 'follow the Quran and Sunnah'. The sunnah is all the information we have about the life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as well as his explicit instructions. None of this is found in the Quran. Islamic scholars have written books of fiqh (Islamic law, which not only contains law as we understand it but also rulings for all aspects of personal life), and this is what Muslims follow. In order to understand the implications of a passage of the Quran, you need to understand:
when and where it was revealed and is what circumstance
how it relates to others passages in the quran
how it relates to hadith
and many other things.

So while Muslims use Quran a lot in our daily lives, we don't just take any passage we want and act upon it.

Similarly, this wouldn't be a good idea with the Bible or Torah.

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CivQueen · 02/12/2016 19:46

Thank you perfectlybroken

I will check that link out and at least feel I know enough to argue back now.

(I knew he was wrong but was too ignorant to point out exactly why Flowers )

labouroflove13 · 02/12/2016 20:09

do you find it threatens your faith though sis queen thats the most important question. does it shake your foundation because if thats the case then we can discuss more in depth issues here in the tearoom. iv read the page you linked and easily off the top off my head i can think of a few rebuttals just based in the Quran itself, i can answer them for you and other sisters to know for your own peace of mind. but dont stress yourself about arguing back and forth.

fuzzy i am generally happy the kids are so diligent about halal and haram foods, sometimes though i wish they'd tell me after i finished the packet! Grin hubby is even worse, he has an attitude of hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil when it comes to ordering non vegetarian foods in a restaurant. il say 'but the certificate on the wall here looks dodgy'! he'll just hush me and say 'its on them if theyre lying!!'.

labouroflove13 · 03/12/2016 09:37

btw i wasnt saying its not ok to seek reassurance about the religion. Asking questions when your unsure is fine sisters, even the holy Prophet Abraham sought that in the Quran... fact checking is good too especially as these websites chop and change verses at will. read the references they give in context as many times even the full verse is not quoted.

"""And (mention) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said, "My Lord, show me how You bring the dead to life." (Allah) said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but for my heart to be satisfied." (Allah) said, "Take four birds and cut them into pieces. Then, put on each mountain a portion of them. Then, call them, they will come to you swiftly. And know that Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise""" (2: 260).

so before all our Saturday's kick off here are a few Quranic verses and points that came to mind when i read that page you posted queen, inshaallah it will help clear up a few issues...

  1. The Koran actually gives women's testimonies privilege over men's in the case of sexual offences. If a man accuses his wife of adultery and testifies by swearing upon God, she can counter his accusation by swearing that she is innocent. and when that happens her testimony stands over his...

""But it shall avert the punishment from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie.
And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth." (24, 8-9)

2.in sharia inheritance can be divided equally if the heirs agree islamqa.info/en/12221. we have already decided between ourselves in my family and that stands.
you can talk of the fact that the Quran gave women the rights of inheritance in the first place which was centuries before that came to other parts of the world. that it was remarkable in a book 1400 odd years old that daughters/wives/sisters had a financial share. the ratio of 2:1 for male/female as well as leading to the development of algebra! - is really due to the extra financial responsibility muslim men are under with their families. a common complaint on muslim womens forums is how their often husbands are duty bound to take care of elderly parents, help out impoverished relatives, bail out indebted/ sued siblings/cousins, and look out for the family feckless and the ne'er do wells generally even when they have sisters. these are very strongly imbued responsibilities inculcated in men and is a part of muslim masculinity - this on top of the Quranic injunction that men bear the financial responsiblity to look after their wife and children.

  1. the verse 'your wives are a tilth for you...' (2:223) is about sexual positions and enjoyment being allowed. this verse is often quoted to encourage muslim couples that sex is healthy and normal, that theres nothing shameful or wrong in trying out different positions or different times/places with your spouse:

"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe." (2:223)

  1. as for concubines, lots in the Quran about freeing slaves as expiation for sins(the seven doors to freeing slaves), setting them free to earn God's love, marrying believing slaves over non believing free women/men. Lady Hajar, the mother of the Arabs was a concubine of Prophet Ibrahim (as) gifted to him later became his second wife. so the status of such women in islam was really very different to their status in the Torah and Bible. We reverence Lady Hajar, and her story at the annual Hajj each year.
Many of the great and/or famous sultans and caliphs of Islam were the children of concubines, considered legitimate as the children of their wives were. in some parts of the muslim world - north/west/east africa, the gulf, etc its common to have had a grandmother or two who was initially a concubine but was made a wife, not shameful. which was unheard of with the western form of slavery that was very bitter. even Boris Johnson the current foreign secretary said the same of his turkish muslim ancestry www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/mar/09/boris.localgovernment anyway thankfully slavery is a thing of the past and the muslim nations of the world are unanimous in that acceptance - though it took alot longer than the western nations to reach that Blush. however the curious thing though sisters is that the verse in the Quran about adultery being illegal except with one's spouse or concubine - 23:6 - wasnt gender specific itself. saying this makes muslims especially scholars and men very squeamish to realise and often the verse is translated to mean male masters and female slaves. however it wasnt always so. one 1 occurance 'Qatadah said, "A woman slept with her male slave so they brought her to Umar. And they told him she understood verse 23:6 to say that, so Umar shaved the male slave head and let her go after expelling the slave from Madina and said the woman shouldn’t marry any one after that." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Sura 23:6). then ulema were unanimous that this verse only meant for men not women!

anyway im off for day hope that helped. lots to be said about bias in muslim scholarship when it comes to interpreting quran and hadith, its not just the liberal muslim feminists who say so. heres a great series on this subject by the salafi feminist
aljumuah.com/the-myth-of-unbiased-islamic-scholarship-part-1/

perfectlybroken · 03/12/2016 09:41

labour I was assuming civqueen is not a Muslim. Perhaps she'll come back and clarify.

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perfectlybroken · 03/12/2016 14:55

Just had time to read your long post labour, really interesting, thanks.

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StarrySpace · 03/12/2016 16:35

Thanks for the interesting points, always good to read!

Wrt to women's rights in Islam, I always mention Khadija al-kubra. She was the first person to convert to Islam and was a business women who employed many merchants to work for her. She was older than the prophet Muhammad (saw) and proposed to him (rather than the other way round!). Even when married, she carried on being a business woman.

That's an independent woman right there! It's sad that we give in to cultural pressures and woman are seen as lower than men, when our own religion is championing women's status and rights.

Needabreaknow · 03/12/2016 19:54

Salamalaykum sisters

Nice to see the tearoom is refurbished and ready to do business. I was a frequent poster on the previous tearooms but took a long break from mumsnet due to the negative threads on mumsnet bashing Muslims.

I pop in every now and again. It will be nice to have some place to stop by and check in.

I have a question for you all. How do you handle the question of Santa. My son just started reception and he is now aware of Santa. He mentions him whenever we see images of him when we are out. I just tend to ignore him completely when he talks about it as I don't know what to say. So far that has worked but I feel like I should have an answer ready if he asks me more about this Santa business.

What I'm worried about is that if I tell him he is not real that will spoil it for the rest of his friends if he goes back to school and tells them. But I don't want to pretend either especially as I do not plan on getting Christmas presents.

I enjoy the festivities of Christmas ie. christmas lights, decorations, mince pies, Christmas telly, the sales etc. However I don't want to invest too much time and money celebrating Christmas. I'm more like a passive participant.

Anyway back to my question. What is a diplomatic answer for a 4 year old about Santa? He doesn't really understand the concept yet that people believe in different things. So a simple answer would be needed.

originalmavis · 03/12/2016 20:08

Santa has transcended religion and gone into culture anyway.

My Muslim relatives' kids have a visit from Santa and Baba Norooz (don't get me on the un-PC-ness of him!) and I've had requests to send Christmas CDs over to Iran.

Don't confuse kids with "we do this, they do that". It's all "us" around here.

perfectlybroken · 03/12/2016 20:42

I just say Santa is made up, like Harry Potter or something, but that lots of children think he's real. To be honest I don't remember ever really believing in Santa (as a non-Muslim child), I just kind of bought into the whole things cos it was fun. I thought that's what most kids did.

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fuzzywuzzy · 03/12/2016 21:22

Needabreak I told my DC that it's something non Muslims believe in.

We get gifts for Eid and this is their celebration.

I never went deeply into it. Didn't discuss the real/pretend thing either just that those are their beliefs and we have ours.

Interestingly I grew up never having discussed Father Christmas and new from a young age it wasn't real, but never said anything to friends who believed. My sister told me when we were older that she always thought Father Christmas didn't come to us as he knew it wasn't part of our religion lol.

originalmavis · 03/12/2016 21:32

My DH had Santa when he was a kid in Iran.

StarrySpace · 03/12/2016 21:35

My ds is in reception and he knows Santa isn't real. I'm quite blunt when it comes to Santa, which may sound a bit harsh to some people. Even dd (9) knew that he isn't real at that age. Although a nice concept, I don't want my kids thinking they're missing out on an old man giving out presents because we don't celebrate Christmas! we still go to Winter Wonderland every year in Hyde Park and meet Santa though! We've never had a problem with them saying anything at school, I think they join in with the whole idea for fun even though they know it's not true.

Does anyone here have dd's around 9/10years? I'm getting nervous about my dd entering puberty and all the emotions and physical changes that go with it. What is the best way islamically to have "the talk" with children?

fuzzywuzzy · 03/12/2016 23:13

Starry you can get books a Muslim girls guide to life's big changes and read it together.

I've tried to ensure my relationship with DC is such that they feel able to talk to me openly about everything.

As far as my DC are concerned I don't get embarrassed or angry and we talk about everything. Alhumdulillah

Mine are now 13 & 12.

StarrySpace · 04/12/2016 09:01

That's really good masha'Allah fuzzy, I'm very lucky my dd is very open with me too, but she's never wondered or asked me anything about babies etc, and I don't know when is the right time to broach the subject and what to say. She does come out with childish comments sometimes that "love is disgusting!", but I do bring her back around and say love is beautiful...I don't know!

I'll have a hunt for some books, I couldn't find any a few months ago.

fuzzywuzzy · 04/12/2016 09:57

sis Starry we started talking about puberty etc when my DC started showing signs of approaching puberty, also when she mentioned that girls in her class fancied a boy etc (felt sorry for the boy who must have felt quite bombarded).

I try to be as open and approachable as possible regardless of feeliong nononono dont grow up I'm not ready lol.