What on earth did she mean by this?

[Sashamasha]

Last Saturday night me and my husband had some friends over for dinner just a few other couples. One couple was a friend of my husband and his wife. She is about my age (36) and although I have seen met her several times and seen her about I've never really spoken to her before and always got the impression she was a bit shy.

Anyway after dinner some of us got talking in the kitchen just about how at our age you finally start to grow up, that you get a much stronger, more solid idea of who you are and your values and that you just really know yourself and have a handle on the world. She wasn't really saying much although she was listening.

Trying to bring her out her shell I asked her very directly what her what her opinion on the topic was and although I can't remember it word for word she basically said something like the concept of being a grown up and having some sort of control was a comfort but that as humans we are all just needs, urges and want and that any understanding we had of ourselves or the world was fleeting and incomplete. She also said she felt that thinking of yourself as some how solid, defined and in control was to be in denial of what we are and a kind of self deception although she then said that self deception was probably a necessary evil.

Well there wasn't very much left to be said after that! She sounds a bit gloomy but she isn't she is very sweet but just never says much and seems to be a bit of a loner (she's an artist). Anyway I can't get what she said out of my mind, I feel a bit disturbed by it and if I am honest I don't really understand it.

So anyone have any idea of what she was on about?

RunRabbit That's catnip to artists.

Claire although who is to say my boss isn't going home every night and meditating on the meaning of life when he tells me he just flops in front of his now box!

I don't think you have to constantly be meditating, consciously thinking/reflecting, or reading philosophy. It's just there. In the background. Every moment is in context, even if your conscious mind is at that moment bound up in doing something mundane. We don't need to be out with a telescope every night to know the stars are there.

Every moment is in context, even if your conscious mind is at that moment bound up in doing something mundane. We don't need to be out with a telescope every night to know the stars are there

Beautifully put. My mind is always whirring, no matter what else I'm doing. Annoying at times, admittedly, but at least I'm never bored

do find the wall of books, actually its like a room of books according to my husband. I find it a bit odd because I usually get mine from the library or if I do buy them once I have read them I pass them on I don't know why you would keep a bunch of books you have already read lying around?

bwah haha. Are you real?

hullygully yes I do find it odd that the OP could encapsulate what this friend said after the event so beautifully - I mean even to remember it so clearly is impressive - but be the type of person 'shocked' that people have BOOKS in their HOUSES. Still, started a great thread!

A pudding with one or two many eggs cannot stand firm.

Ancient Hebridean proverb.

This thread is lovely - and a shining example of OPs story, even the most 'normal' women with their husbands, jobs, kids have existential thoughts.

OP, I'm interested - although I know this is going to sound insulting! - in your self definition of being the smartest person in the room. If you define 'normal' people as not having deep thoughts beyond that of day-to-day practicalities, by what measure do you feel the smartest?

I am really not trying to disagree with you or imply that you're not, it's a genuine question as if I were to try and pick the smartest person in a room, it would more likely be someone like your friend who offers an alternative point of view, and one that they have obviously reflected on, even if I did not agree with it myself.

Zazen My thoughts exactly. Namaste to you too!

Space at least I'm never bored

Gosh, yes. It's the "rich inner life" thing, isn't it? (Although I think it's less of an inner life and more an appreciation of the bigger picture.) My day-to-day life in terms of interaction and places visited appears very limited, but I feel like I'm somehow covering so much ground and living "richly", absorbing/reflecting on so many things! I'm also studying which gives a sort of glorious high, the feeling of discovery. I'm actually not working due to ongoing mental health struggles, and it is so frustrating that some people seem to think that somehow it's due to boredom - I've never felt more fulfilled! And it seems to be quite healing. [Although of course the aim is to get us weirdos functioning in the "real" world (ha!), aka "dysfunctional in precisely the right way to fit in".]

This is a great thread, very thought provoking.

Sasha I wonder if it felt a bit judgy or didactic when she said it? You were having light hearted dinner party chats and that was deep stuff. As a psychodynamically trained therapist I pretty much agree with her, but don't know if I would get into such a debate with people I didn't know well at a social function.

I think it is possible to think deeply and still enjoy the trivial things in life and I do wonder how much fun your acquaintance has,she sounds quite intense. I too have a room that is just bookshelves in my house plus a study that houses all my academic books but that didn't stop me starting the thread about glittery eyeshadow someone mentioned earlier!

A PP (sorry I cant remember your name) made a very interesting point about dementia being scary because we start to lose the feelings of control. I think dementia is also scary because we start to lose our memories and our memories are our identity.

I wonder if it upset you OP because she not only challenged your thinking, she challenged your perception of how the world views you.

You have said that you feel you've now "got a handle on the world".
That you are usually "the most intelligent person in the room".
That you thought this woman was intimidated by you and your friends.

So you are standing with your friends thinking how intelligent, dynamic, impressive and beautiful you all are, and this quiet woman who you don't really rate opens her mouth and clearly demonstrates that not only is she not intimidated by you, she doesn't see you and your friends as impressive at all.

It can very uncomfortable to find out what other people think of us.

It seems to me from your comments on this thread that you are dealing with your discomfort around this by saying that this woman isn't "normal":

It's ok she's not impressed by us because she's "airy fairy".
She doesn't have kids so she has time to think that way.
No one else thinks that way. My boss doesn't. My friends don't.

It sounds like you are trying to rationalise it so you can go back to feeling like you are the most impressive person in the room.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but it you might want to reflect on why it is so important to you to be seen as so got it together. You are only 36, you've decades left of life yet, your journey isn't half done yet.

I don't think we should ever consider ourselves "finished" there's always more to be learning, it's what keeps life so interesting.

I assumed you were joking, Maid! No worries!

Liiinoo to be fair the woman was asked a direct question. She was challenged to provide a response by a group of women who assumed she was intimidated by them.

In that context her reply was perfectly reasonable and had the added benefit of quite neatly putting them in their place.

This is a really great thread. Interesting viewpoints abound. Thanks to people on here for taking the time to discuss things. This is why Mumsnet can be so great sometimes.

Some great recommendations for books/podcasts/videos that I will note down. This is in Chat so presumably will be removed after 30 days?

Just seen that there is a Philosophy/Religion topic. Might venture in there once I've read up a bit more.

I find it more strange that people haven't thought these things!
At parties in my 20s (usually late in evening) I sometimes would get into a conversation about similar, how similar all humans are (are the differences just reactions to our environment) or religion/faith etc with people. I didn't always bring it up, I thought most would do this! Isn't that what students are famous for?
Occasionally you get people who look at you with a blank face like they hadn't even considered any of these things.

I miss those days! I think I only scratched the surface of thinking and now my whole day is taken up with work/children etc!

You can't predict what people will do all the time, even if you know them well. You can't even predict what you will do in an unknown situation.

Agree with this.

Even look at the Relationships board here. Thread after thread saying "my husband has had an affair, I NEVER thought he'd do this to me, I trusted him 100%".

Thread after thread saying "I always thought I'd end the relationship if he cheated, but I want to give us another chance".

Even threads saying "I love my husband and we were happy but recently I've been having an affair, I have fallen completely head over heels for the OM".

People don't even know themselves, never mind others. There will always be things that come up in life that make us react differently to how we thought we would. And it's not even the really big stuff like death, serious illness etc.

What a great thread.

I think you're right to think that as you get older you become more self-aware and confident.

Your quiet friend is right too. The Buddhist view of self is useful for remembering that everything changes and life is short - therefore try not to sweat the small stuff or take things for granted. This goes hand in had with mindfulness, ie being aware of your surroundings and your feeilngs and therefore more able to have control of unhelpful reactions, thoughts or feelings you have that push you into thinking or behaving 'unskillfully'.

This idea of not having a fixed self is very positive if you see it in terms of the interconnectedness of all life. We are all who we are because of everything that has gone before us and happens around us. Therefore we try to keep in mind the belief that everything we do or think has consequences. And look on everyone with compassion rather than judgement as everyone is the product of their circumstances.

We are all equally deserving of happiness. Happiness/or peace will be achieved by cultivating a default mindset of loving kindness, acting from the intention to be compassionate to other people (beings) and to ourself.

The practice of regular meditation allows Buddhists time and focus to become more self aware and to cultivate this mindset of loving kindness.

IMO all religions encourage compassion and taking time to reflect, whether through prayer, meditating or religious rituals.

I get your confusion completely. I was !!!! when I first began to learn about Buddhism. Now I think it makes absolute and utter sense. Which is a complete surprise to me. The idea of the self being an illusion is not nihilistic.

TBH, IMO most people are so busy these days they don't have time to think!

Being clever or intelligent is not the same as being wise.....

Good luck with your explorations. It seems to me that you've got off to a great start as you are clearly very honest about yourself and open to other people's views and advice.

I like her

I've asked for this to be moved if possible, so it doesn't disappear after 90 days. So many interesting viewpoints and links.

just struggle to see where a normal woman would get the energy to think like this never mind the balls to say it?
What do you mean by normal? To a philosopher "Normal" is all relative. The balls reference is very sexist. What you have just said is that she needs to be a man (men have balls ) to have the time and energy to think like that while you have your career and children, hosting dinner parties to fill up your time. In the same breath, you also, dismissed her importance to the world by Considering what you see as mundane in your life to be more important.

Your ideas of what it means to be in control has been skewed by your bulling nature and self assurance. This manifested itself in your provocative nature to force her out of her shy shell. Your belief that because she is shy, she must be lucking in intelligence, therefore opening her mouth to speak would lead to an embarrassment. To your unconscious self, it came from the right place by trying to be inclusive. However, if you were someone like her, you would have stoped and thought about the impact of forcing someone to speak would have on their mental wellbeing. The opposite of what was meant to happened is what shocked you. It has made you unsure by questioning your belief. Here you are trying to assure yourself by posting on Mn by trying to get some validation. The problem is, life will never be the same. You have just walked out of the dark cave and feeling a bit wobbly from seeing the sunlight.

I do like to read mostly fiction though crime fiction and thrillers but also some literary fiction I love Gone Girl.

'Gone Girl' is pretty much one huge musing on the illusion of control over one's life and a stable concept of who anyone truly 'is', 'how' we change in response to events outside of our control, and how social concepts such as 'the cool girl' shape our behaviour.
Some people live in a bubble. Society has created what we constitute as being grown up and the op has reached a point where she has ticked the boxes. In her mind, she is must be content. What this has done is stopped herself from thinking outside of that box she has just ticked. When she reads books, she looks for comparisons and similarities of characters to her life rather than the thought provoking theories authors convey in their work. Every human story has philosophy behind it. Asking 'why something is', is thought provoking and it would explain why the conversation was shut down. You didn't want to look stupid by asking why. That in itself is a sign of lack of intelligence.

I also believe, that some people need to be taught to think philosophically. It takes self awareness and understanding of your surrounding to understand that the world does not revolve around you.

The idea of the self being an illusion is not nihilistic

I agree - I genuinely find it to be a very liberating idea. If you're not 'set in stone' you can bend with the wind, adapt to life's challenges, let go of ego. It's wonderful

Space did you ask the OP's opinion on that before you requested it? This is a fairly identifying thread, the OP might well have chosen chat deliberately.

Space did you ask the OP's opinion on that before you requested it? This is a fairly identifying thread, the OP might well have chosen chat deliberately

I didn't, I thought about it but recalled from a previous occurrence that requests for threads to be moved either had to come from the OP or, if requested by someone else, MNHQ check with the OP directly before agreeing to a move.

Ok, fair enough. I just think that although I agree it's an interesting thread, it may not be an entirely comfortable one for the OP. She may well prefer it to disappear.

I suppose it comes down to how practical you are as opposed to more airy fairy? I don't mean that in a bad way.

Rational buddhism is a way of thinking that can actually transpire to be far more practical than almost any other way of thinking that I can imagine.

Great thread. I occasionally wander onto the Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality board, but rarely find this kind of discussion tbh. It seems to be mostly people agreeing or violently disagreeing about religion. Which is fair enough but usually very polarised and not as thought-provoking as this thread.