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What on earth did she mean by this?

195 replies

Sashamasha · 05/10/2016 10:36

Last Saturday night me and my husband had some friends over for dinner just a few other couples. One couple was a friend of my husband and his wife. She is about my age (36) and although I have seen met her several times and seen her about I've never really spoken to her before and always got the impression she was a bit shy.

Anyway after dinner some of us got talking in the kitchen just about how at our age you finally start to grow up, that you get a much stronger, more solid idea of who you are and your values and that you just really know yourself and have a handle on the world. She wasn't really saying much although she was listening.

Trying to bring her out her shell I asked her very directly what her what her opinion on the topic was and although I can't remember it word for word she basically said something like the concept of being a grown up and having some sort of control was a comfort but that as humans we are all just needs, urges and want and that any understanding we had of ourselves or the world was fleeting and incomplete. She also said she felt that thinking of yourself as some how solid, defined and in control was to be in denial of what we are and a kind of self deception although she then said that self deception was probably a necessary evil.

Well there wasn't very much left to be said after that! She sounds a bit gloomy but she isn't she is very sweet but just never says much and seems to be a bit of a loner (she's an artist). Anyway I can't get what she said out of my mind, I feel a bit disturbed by it and if I am honest I don't really understand it.

So anyone have any idea of what she was on about?

OP posts:
clairesmooncat · 05/10/2016 13:04

Thank you everyone for all your feedback, not all of it comfortable for me and for the links and book recommendations. I will watch some of the videos tonight as they seem like a good place to start.

I do think I am probably one of the normal ones at least out of everyone I know and I have a fairly wide social circle although who is to say my boss isn't going home every night and meditating on the meaning of life when he tells me he just flops in front of his now box!

ravenmum · 05/10/2016 13:07

What does "normal" even mean? You mean "in the majority", maybe? Being in the minority doesn't actually make you abnormal, you know.

StillMaidOfStars · 05/10/2016 13:09

OP, try this as an intro to many basic concepts in philosophy. It's almost 'pop philosophy' and very accessible even for those who don't have the energy or balls

www.amazon.co.uk/Pig-That-Wants-Eaten-Ninety-Nine/dp/1847081282

ravenmum · 05/10/2016 13:09

(And I hope that in fact the majority of people spend at least a couple of minutes from time to time thinking about interesting ideas... I flop in front of the TV too but that doesn't stop me having an opinion on whether life has a meaning.)

SpaceUnicorn · 05/10/2016 13:10

It takes energy to not think, IME. Energy to actively block stuff out. (I realise some/most people are not like this)

I agree. It's a revelation (and a depressing one, at that) to me that some people see 'thinking' as something that isn't done by 'normal' people (and specifically 'normal women') Confused

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 05/10/2016 13:11

Why not tell yoga woman you found her ideas fascinating and totally different from what you normally hear, so sorry if you made her uncomfortable at the time. Does she want to go out for coffee?

If she's an artist she will LOVE that she made you look at the world differently and you have dwelled on her ideas. That's catnip to artists.

StillMaidOfStars · 05/10/2016 13:12

I also think the OP has neatly embodied the difference between 'intelligence' and 'intellect'.

Littlefiendsusan · 05/10/2016 13:13

Marking place for reading later.

Ionone · 05/10/2016 13:13

I'm really interested in the fact that the OP usually thinks she is one of the smartest people in the room. I am, objectively speaking, quite clever (degree from respected university etc etc), but it has literally never occurred to me to rank the people I spend time with by intelligence.

StillMaidOfStars · 05/10/2016 13:14

(And that neither is necessarily required for the other)

StillMaidOfStars · 05/10/2016 13:14

I spend my days in academia.

One degree? Pah. Go make the coffee Wink

Rockpebblestone · 05/10/2016 13:15

So she had some ideas which are different to your own, OP? Why the discomfort? You just mull these ideas over, process them and enjoy. Who cares if she keeps lots of books and you keep very few?I have loads, some highly rated, some less so, but, guess what, they are just full of lots of ideas. I don't think life is about some intellectual pissing contest where you trade off people and concepts you've read in return for status. What matters, I think, is if you can genuinely be kind, caring and loving. We all struggle at this.

Jointhejoyrun75 · 05/10/2016 13:16

Why is it then that you can predict how a loved one might react in most situations if that is not a sense of knowing who they are? Very interesting thread, thank you for taking the time to start this OP by telling us about your friend.

furryminkymoo · 05/10/2016 13:16

What would I think? I would think that she is a very intelligent person and succinctly put into words something that a lot of people would struggle with.

Ionone · 05/10/2016 13:18

Well, I did say only 'quite clever', Maid.

ThirdThoughts · 05/10/2016 13:20

This is fascinating. You've shared some of your fixed ideas about yourself with us. You see yourself as Intelligent and Practical. You and your friends feel that as you are aging, you are becoming more fixed. More rigid.

I think there is some truth in this physiologically. Our brains reinforce the connections we use most often and those we don't wither. So adults can be less open and changeable than children and teenagers. Philip Pullman explores this difference between innocence and experience in 'His Dark Materials'. In Lyra's universe, souls are visible and take animal form as daemons. Daemons of adults take a fixed shape and those of children change shape. When Lyra speaks to a sailor about that he says that its comforting to him to know that his daemon is a gull, because he's a tough old thing that can always find a bit of food and company. The self knowledge is comforting. But he says that others are dissatisfied with their daemons too (usually because they wanted something more impressive than they have). I think there is something comforting about developing that sense of self.

I've defintely grown in confidence. I'm now 30 and feel more sure of myself than I used to. I think experience can do that.

But I've also changed a lot in my habits which can become part of my identity too. For the previous two decades I dodged exercise whenever possible. I'm obese. I didn't feel like I was the same species as people who expended extra energy for fun. And yet I've been running for 7 weeks and I'm loving it and I'm glad that my sense of self wasn't so rigid that I was unwilling to try doing something new. I feel like I am a runner now and my body is beginning to adapt to this new activity and identity.

When I got pregnant with my DS (now 4) we had spent so many years trying unsuccessfully, that it took a long time for me to really feel like I was going to have a baby, and that I was really going to be allowed to keep him. Part of my identity had been bundled up in 'I'm never going to have children' that it took quite a while of having one for me to rewrite it.

Identity definitely can be reshaped, either consciously, like when I decided I was a runner after my first run and made the decision to run three times a week. Or by circumstances which happen (death, disability, redundancy etc).

My husband has quite rigid beliefs about himself, some quite negative and I think it is related to his depression. Where as I can really see the positives in being open, fluid and accepting. I don't yet know how the rest of my story (or those of the people around me) goes, so I try not to have a fixed vision of how things 'should' be. I think this isn't resignation to fate, I think it gives me the freedom to learn and grow and become my best self.

So I think there is some wisdom in both ways of thinking and the lived truth is probably balanced in the space between that rigid unchanging persona and the completely fluid, everything changes idea. Having a comfortable idea of who you are is comforting, as long as you don't let it limit you, or make you feel completely lost when you go through a life change outside your control.

Maybe your reaction to what she said suggests that whilst you are comfortable with your feeling of grown up self at the moment, maybe you are curious about some of those paths not taken yet. Whether that's learning about philosophy or trying yoga, or finding time to read more books. And maybe you are a bit anxious at the idea that you are vulnerable to change too. It is an unsettling thought but every person is in the same boat.

I'm an artist and have a lot of bookshelves too. Grin

StillMaidOfStars · 05/10/2016 13:21

Oh god, that wasn't directed at you. Sorry. Just a general flippant joke. Flowers

Reading back, it looks awful

SpaceUnicorn · 05/10/2016 13:22

Why is it then that you can predict how a loved one might react in most situations if that is not a sense of knowing who they are?

In entirely non-sentimental terms, as social agents we can predict how most animals might react in most situations, based on past experience.

Our survival as a species depended on predicting the actions of those around us (friend or foe? Predator or pet?) as as such we have developed efficient mechanisms for predicting the behaviour of those around us, on the basis of past experience.

hutchblue · 05/10/2016 13:27

This reply has been withdrawn

The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

ravenmum · 05/10/2016 13:27

Why is it then that you can predict how a loved one might react in most situations if that is not a sense of knowing who they are?
You can't predict what people will do all the time, even if you know them well. You can't even predict what you will do in an unknown situation.
But yes, we do have some idea about the "sort" of person we or others are. Partly that is an illusion caused by the structure of our brains, which save energy by sorting things into categories. Partly it is because we don't shift huge amounts from one moment to the next. But even though I know my son well at 16, I have no idea what he will be like at 26, 36 or 76.

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 05/10/2016 13:32

Radio can be brilliant for kickstarting thinking. I listen to loads of R4 iPlayer stuff while doing boring shit like batch cooking.

I like Melvyn Bragg although I often end up shouting at the radio.

I adore More or Less but then I am a major stats nerd so I realise it isn't for everyone.

I'll often choose what to get on iPlayer based Pick of the Week

If you want glimpses into other totally different ways of life in a gentle, short and lovely way, I think From our Correspondent cannot be beaten.

Comedy can make you think too. Well, sometimes. Sunday night DH and I do boring jobs while listening to Friday's News Quiz

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 05/10/2016 13:33

Try the Chimp Paradox

Eolian · 05/10/2016 13:34

I also think that reflecting on these things, and accepting that life is a fleeting thing over which we have less control than we think, is good for our collective mental health as a species. Recognising our desires and drives and realising that much of our behaviour stems from them is a good thing. Losing control when you have fooled yourself into thinking you are in control is terrifying. It's better to realise you aren't really in control. 'S like the Matrix, innit? Grin Seriously though, I'm not a Buddhist but I think Buddhism has some quite sensible views on this kind of stuff.

Eolian · 05/10/2016 13:37

Oh and Radio 4, obviously Grin. There are lots of lighter books that explore social and existential issues in a comic or fictional way too. Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett spring to mind.

ravenmum · 05/10/2016 13:39

More or Less should be taught at school to encourage critical thinking, it is not for statistics nerds!

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