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Original poster

What on earth did she mean by this?

195 replies

Sashamasha · 05/10/2016 10:36

Last Saturday night me and my husband had some friends over for dinner just a few other couples. One couple was a friend of my husband and his wife. She is about my age (36) and although I have seen met her several times and seen her about I've never really spoken to her before and always got the impression she was a bit shy.

Anyway after dinner some of us got talking in the kitchen just about how at our age you finally start to grow up, that you get a much stronger, more solid idea of who you are and your values and that you just really know yourself and have a handle on the world. She wasn't really saying much although she was listening.

Trying to bring her out her shell I asked her very directly what her what her opinion on the topic was and although I can't remember it word for word she basically said something like the concept of being a grown up and having some sort of control was a comfort but that as humans we are all just needs, urges and want and that any understanding we had of ourselves or the world was fleeting and incomplete. She also said she felt that thinking of yourself as some how solid, defined and in control was to be in denial of what we are and a kind of self deception although she then said that self deception was probably a necessary evil.

Well there wasn't very much left to be said after that! She sounds a bit gloomy but she isn't she is very sweet but just never says much and seems to be a bit of a loner (she's an artist). Anyway I can't get what she said out of my mind, I feel a bit disturbed by it and if I am honest I don't really understand it.

So anyone have any idea of what she was on about?

OP posts:
helpimitchy · 05/10/2016 10:53

We can never get a complete picture of ourselves as we can't see ourselves as others see us.

Original poster
Sashamasha · 05/10/2016 10:56

Thanks for all the insight, lots of things to think about.

Showmetheelf, thats a really helpful take on what she said. I'm listening to Tim Minchin Storms now and its hilarious but its nothing like the woman at my dinner party. Do you think its better to have the self awareness or the more intangable path you mention?

I can't believe so many people agree with her, I found it such and odd way to think.

OP posts:
StrictlyJiving · 05/10/2016 10:58

I think she's trying to say that, as humans we are all co trolled by something, the idea that we are now 'control' is fleeting because as one thing may lose its control over us, something 'else' takes control.
I also think as one ages, one tends to feel that one has more control over ones life because you grow out of needing to 'obey' others or worry about repercussions for not towing the line. Parents grow old, and control less than in their youth, uncles/aunties age or have other worries or things to amuse them. Your age group start to mature and life starts to form a circle instead of a straight line, mean bullies in their younger days start to reach the age where they realise life doesn't revolve around them as they finally start to experience a few knock backs of their own.

So at the grand age of ID 30s you finally start to feel that the chains are losing from round your neck, you're free to be who you want, dress how you want, be friends with who you want, marry who you want, care less what others think. The irony of it all is that other things now control us (worry about kids, partners, mums at school drop off, work, so we're never completely 'in control' it just changes.

But it helps to acknowledge that we are in control at least to some degree because it's how humans are to function , to completely lack any control would be disastrous to our survival.

Zazen · 05/10/2016 11:00

She probably following a Buddhist path.
She's absolutely correct btw. Grin

Welcome to Buddhist philosophy.

Namaste!

Degustibusnonestdisputandem · 05/10/2016 11:01

Well, I have to say I tend to agree! However in the words of Pratchett:

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

nicebitofsodaandjam · 05/10/2016 11:02

Also imagine how many nice Syrian women of 36 might have been 'ooh, I really know myself now, etc etc' but are scrabbling for cover in the rubble of a ruined city wondering where the fuck their families are and where we will get our next clean water from. I don't mean that in a 'think how lucky you are' type way, more to highlight that a lot of our ability to consider ourselves independent and to self-analyse is a luxury because we live in a time and place with good healthcare and a reasonable hope of not being invaded etc. I happen to agree with you that on a level I do think that I know myself and my environs better as I grow older, but at the same time I know that so far I am just lucky. Life at many times and for many people is indeed nasty, brutish and short, society is what we have created to ameliorate that and push the darkness away.

Bountybarsyuk · 05/10/2016 11:03

I don't really agree with her. One of the reasons that dementia is so devastating to people, both around the person and for themselves, is a loss of self, of that more stable feeling like 'you'. If we were just all quite chaotic and not really ourselves, there wouldn't be anything to lose. Illness would be quite easy to handle.

I don't disagree that knowing ourselves is fleeting and incomplete on a large scale, in terms of 100's of years. But in terms of everyday, most people do have a quite clearly defined sense of self, and that's why not having that certainty is classified as a disorder (e.g. borderline personality disorder, dementia) and why people with these conditions often get really distressed as it's incredibly hard to live without it. To the extend it's not utterly solid, she's right, but I don't agree we are just all a collection of wants and needs in quite the random way she implies.

nicebitofsodaandjam · 05/10/2016 11:05

Haha I am a writer too, also have to hide these thoughts from many so as not to freak them out, luckily I am Irish so rarely short of someone to agonise over these issues with at three in the morning while half cut

Badders123 · 05/10/2016 11:05

The whole concept of control is an illusion thought, isn't it?
It scares me tbh but it's the truth about

nicebitofsodaandjam · 05/10/2016 11:06

bounty that is a really interesting angle, very true.

Thefitfatty · 05/10/2016 11:08

If we were just all quite chaotic and not really ourselves, there wouldn't be anything to lose. Illness would be quite easy to handle.

But that's the self deception she was talking about isn't? We deceive ourselves into thinking we have control. Dementia and losing that deception is the issue, not the fact that it doesn't exist.

Maxwellthecat · 05/10/2016 11:08

Is she a Buddhist?
That sounds like Buddhist philosophy and if she's not drinking and is a veggie then she probably is. Part of the Buddhist teachings is to only talk if you have something truthful to say say and to restrain from talking for the sake of it so that might be why she's quiet.
Sounds like she's living life by the the 8 fold path to me.
I would love to chat to her, she sounds really interesting!

ItShouldHaveBeenJess · 05/10/2016 11:12

I tend to agree with her. 'Control' over what exactly? We none of ever truly have control over anything. Agree with PP that it sounds as though it may be coming from a Buddhist angle.

a7mints · 05/10/2016 11:13

I think you and your friends are wrong. Death,bereavment life changing injuryor a big windfall could be just around the corner and you have no control over the 'big'things

Budgiebonbon · 05/10/2016 11:15

I tend to agree with your friend and think that she added greatly to your conversation.

This way of thinking explains a lot about human nature, why people follow religions, and the herd mentality. It asks the question ....What is it to be human?

What interests me OP is why has it unsettled you, you mention that it has played on your mind, why do you think this is?

Thejubremonyatthelibrary · 05/10/2016 11:19

This is a normal perspective amongst my friends (all writers/ artists so maybe that explains it). I don't see anything controversial in what she said. My politics, beliefs, spirituality etc. - they've all shifted repeatedly throughout my life and continue to evolve. I suppose when we react to something way outside of our normal range that's when we have an existential crisis/ mid-life crisis or even MH problems.

Timothysclaypole · 05/10/2016 11:21

I think what she's saying, in a nutshell, is that we are fluid.

Anything can happen to change us, you can't be in control of everything and we are never fully formed while we're still growing.

Which I agree with. Although, my interpretation could be way off.

Original poster
Sashamasha · 05/10/2016 11:21

I'm not sure if she is a buddhist, as far as I know she was raised catholic but doesn't practice anymore. I've never been to her house so have no clues from that.

My husband has been and says they have a room at the back which is wall to wall book cases!

OP posts:
iniquity · 05/10/2016 11:22

Humans from the dawn of time have turned their desire to control the environment and reduce unpredictabilities into the technology we have today. I think she said wrong is some respects. We have as a species managed to gain alot of control over the environment.

ScaredFuture99 · 05/10/2016 11:23

It reminds me of Buddhist teachings.

I like her :) and tend to agree with her.
This feeling of being in control is self deception (you are never in full control of what is going on around us or to us) but gives feeling a safety that we probably need.

I don't think it's gloomy. More of a different view of the works world around us.

SpaceUnicorn · 05/10/2016 11:24

So anyone have any idea of what she was on about?

My take on her viewpoint: a) no one has a fully defined sense of self, we have a sense of who we believe ourselves to be at a given point in time, which is influenced by the 'narratives' we construct for ourselves, which are in turn influenced by the narratives of others and our day to day circumstances. This is a fairly robust concept in psychology.

And b) with regard to her comment on urges, etc., I'd guess she's referring to the 'selfish gene' theory, and the idea that free will is a myth as we are unconsciously driven by forces that aim towards genetic perpetuity.

She sounds utterly awesome, and very well-read.

ScaredFuture99 · 05/10/2016 11:25

Xpost.

I'm not sure how you would know if someone is a Buddhist from going into their house. Or can relate strongly to their philosophy.
Having beeing raised a Catholic, doesn't mean she isn't attracted by that philosophy either.

Original poster
Sashamasha · 05/10/2016 11:25

I think it bothers me because I have always regarded myself as above average intelligence. I have a degree and a good job. I have read the odd book and I normally feel like the smartest person in the room or at least one of the smartest and I just felt like what she said went over my head. I mean I understood the words she used but still felt like I didn't quite get it. It was unnerving for me.

OP posts:
SpaceUnicorn · 05/10/2016 11:28

I can't believe so many people agree with her, I found it such and odd way to think

Why did you find it odd?

Budgiebonbon · 05/10/2016 11:33

Thank you for your honesty- I can totally understand why it is unnerving.

To me it is a bit like thinking about the size of the universe and where does it end...... is it infinite? - utterly mind boggling!