What on earth did she mean by this?

[Sashamasha]

Last Saturday night me and my husband had some friends over for dinner just a few other couples. One couple was a friend of my husband and his wife. She is about my age (36) and although I have seen met her several times and seen her about I've never really spoken to her before and always got the impression she was a bit shy.

Anyway after dinner some of us got talking in the kitchen just about how at our age you finally start to grow up, that you get a much stronger, more solid idea of who you are and your values and that you just really know yourself and have a handle on the world. She wasn't really saying much although she was listening.

Trying to bring her out her shell I asked her very directly what her what her opinion on the topic was and although I can't remember it word for word she basically said something like the concept of being a grown up and having some sort of control was a comfort but that as humans we are all just needs, urges and want and that any understanding we had of ourselves or the world was fleeting and incomplete. She also said she felt that thinking of yourself as some how solid, defined and in control was to be in denial of what we are and a kind of self deception although she then said that self deception was probably a necessary evil.

Well there wasn't very much left to be said after that! She sounds a bit gloomy but she isn't she is very sweet but just never says much and seems to be a bit of a loner (she's an artist). Anyway I can't get what she said out of my mind, I feel a bit disturbed by it and if I am honest I don't really understand it.

So anyone have any idea of what she was on about?

I find it odd because I just never thought that way and I don't really think anyone else I know does. I think even on this thread you can see a split between those who find what she said interesting and correct and those who it doesn't wash with. I suppose it comes down to how practical you are as opposed to more airy fairy? I don't mean that in a bad way.

I don't think you have to be an artist, Buddhist or free spirit to think this. I'm a very pragmatic person but her view sounds very reasonable to me. For example, scientists looking at free will have done tests where people had to make decisions, and press a button the moment they made the decision. At the same time they studied the person's brain waves and saw that their brains actually appeared to have made the decision long before they pressed the button. www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

It's also that you are never the same person. We all have this sense of 'this is who I am' but in reality we change as we are affected by events around us so we are never quite the same than how we were yesterday or a month ago or a week ago. In the same way, our cells change and die and reproduce all the time, so after the a few months we will have replaced all our cells. So we will be entirely different than how we were 6 months with ago.
In the same way, the world around us is never exactely the same than it was yesterday. A branch from the tree has been broken. In a year's time, that tree will have died. Lisa from work used to be pleasant and good fun but she is now always grumpy etc ..

Re our needs and wants. Yep most of what we want is wants. It's also attachment to a certain outcome, the expectation that things are supposed to go a certain way and the difficulty we have in accepting things when they don't.
Eg we tend to expect to always take the same amount of time to go to work and struggle to deal with the fact there is an accident on the road and we will be 15 mins late etc...

For me, this means that you need to try and understand who y are wo the labels we normally use. I am intelligent, I am a mother, a wife etc... Because these are things that will change at some point in time. Even being a mum will have a different meaning when your DC is 1yo and when he is 35yo.
It's interesting stuff bar quite heavy and ime taking time to get your head around :)

She sounds thoughtful - I find what we know of ourselves and who we are fascinating.

"It does facinate me and in many ways she is the most in control person I've ever met doesn't drink, has the disapline to do a totally self directed job, vegetarian, yoga practising etc" plus her answer on the OP,

I'd guess Buddhist or Taoist.

Maybe if you're unused to hearing that type of philosophy OP, it came as a surprise. If you're interested, try reading something by the Dalai Lama or Lau Tzu's Tao te Ching.

sadha so is the issue that it made feel ill at ease because y felt out of yr depth?
I wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong with that. Unless y have come across that sort of ideas (and no there are not 'mainstream' unless either you have looked at psychology etc.. Or like me read quite a bit about Buddhism) the it takes a long time to digest that. It has nothing to do with being intelligent or not!

And you're right that sort of ideas are very down to earth. Just hard to reconcile with our (false) idea that things are stable and unchanging.

I'm not sure you can dismiss many of the world's great thinkers and philosophers (NOT ME OBVS) as airy fairy types. These are some of the great questions of life and can very practically shape how people, including leaders, shape, contribute to or engage with society.

Do you read books? It seems like you find the idea of a wall of books quite odd? Why was your degree in?

WHAT was your degree in?

I wish I had friends who said things like that - it sounds as if she was actually thinking not just spouting platitudes as most of us do in social situations IMO. Maybe it's a bit undergraduate to talk like that - I remember having that kind of conversation 20+ years ago, but these days people just seem to say what's expected and not to actually think ...

My degree was in public administration so not very airy fairy, at least not as airy fairy as her masters in fine art! I don't mean airy fairy in a bad way I just mean not concerned with practical day to day things like most people.

I do find the wall of books, actually its like a room of books according to my husband. I find it a bit odd because I usually get mine from the library or if I do buy them once I have read them I pass them on I don't know why you would keep a bunch of books you have already read lying around?

I suppose it comes down to how practical you are as opposed to more airy fairy?

OK, so today I 'am' a happily married suburban mum of two in good health, with an infinite other number of additional 'recognitions' about myself (related to work, friendships, family, personal politics and beliefs, external societal circumstances, etc., etc).

In the next hour, day, week, year, decade, etc, any number of things could occur that are out of my control and that would fundamentally change my sense of 'self'. I could get hit by a car and lose a limb, civil war could break out, I could become an orphan, a bereaved mother, a widow, and so on. At any moment I could 'become' a very different 'self' in response to external events that I have no control over. My only element of control would be in choosing how to react to any given event.

I find acceptance of that very comforting, more so than being tied to a definition of myself and my life, and I see that as a more practical outlook, rather than 'airy fairy'.

She sounds like my kind of girl. Not necessarily because I agree with her (although I do) but I like people who aren't embarrassed or too polite to not speak their mind about 'proper stuff'. Fuck small talk.

It maybe is a bit undergraduate to say those things but then quite often it is only students who are reading those books and who have the time to sit about thinking all day! Even if my degree was a bit mundane I was probably at my sharpest when I was a student, hang overs aside!

This is an interesting discussion.

I do find that a few people (not saying you are, OP) feel very strongly that they need to conform to the heteronormative, 2 kids, an Audi and a wood burning stove narrative of How People Must Live Their Lives. Particularly as they get into their 30s. Anyone who deviates from this is accused of the heinous crime of not being a grown-up.

If you ask them why their lives are 'grown-up' and someone who goes clubbing every weekend is not 'grown-up' they tend to get a bit defensive and not really able to articulate their position.

The feeling of control and having a handle on things might just be the way that we humans choose to positively frame the way that we have settled for a rather limited, easier-to-manage life. You can control a limited, humdrum life a lot more easily then a hugely exciting life with unlimited horizons. It is a lot easier to control a small thing than a large thing.

I don't feel more grown-up or solid than I did when I was 20. I have more responsibilities, more experience of life and more 'nice' things. But I'm not more grown-up, I don't think.

And if anything, I feel less solid and less in control. Bereavements and the general knocks of life do take their toll. I now know that anything can be taken away from you. At 20 I felt I was invincible.

I don't know why you would keep a bunch of books you have already read lying around?

Because it's wonderful to re-read something that resonated deeply with you. Because it's useful to refer back to books when you want to refresh your knowledge of a subject. And because you take different lessons/levels of knowledge from a book at different stages in your life, as you change and grow.

I think your title for this thread, your reaction to her statement and book collection show you up as being narrow minded and judgemental.
I also think that you weren't trying to bring her out of her shell. Your direct question was confrontational. Not at all friendly.
She's a deep thinker with an open mind. You and your friends are conservative thinkers.

Space unicorn, I don't think I read those kind of books, perhaps I should. I don't know this feels like a can of worms I'm might be better off leaving unopened.

quite often it is only students who are reading those books and who have the time to sit about thinking all day

What are 'those books'?

What types of books do you like to read?

I agree with her some days, and then other days I might agree with the OP, but on most days I can't be arsed thinking about this sort of stuff at all . I find the idea that people are incapable of changing 'who they are' at a certain age a bit depressing though.

JellyBelli, You might have a point. I think I get a certain satisfaction out of feeling more "sorted" than other people. I think I thought of this woman as just shy and maybe intimidated by me and my friends. I didn't expect her to come out with that.

Lucky you to have had a conversation where someone blew your mind a bit! I would love to have more unpredictable social conversations.

Not sure 'airy fairy' vs practical is right. You were all talking about values and identity in any case, it just sounds like she's thought about it more widely and doesn't share your assumptions. You sound open to thinking about it more. Why not ask her where she's coming from and get her to recommend some info?

I don't know this feels like a can of worms I'm might be better off leaving unopened

Or you could open it even wider and see what happens?

Unicorn, I don't know books about philosophy and buddhism as suggested?

I do like to read mostly fiction though crime fiction and thrillers but also some literary fiction I love Gone Girl.