Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

It does rather tie in with the "all women who cover do it entirely of their own free will and in complete isolation from any familial or cultural or societal influences" narrative.......

Is the underlying issue here that the most pious/devout Muslim woman is the one who’s covered up the most? So it’s about showing off? Granted, the actual woman will certainly have been instructed to dress in that way, but does she (and her family) gain extra respect within her community as a result?

Christianity instructs its followers to not broadcast their piety/good works – was it the widow’s mites parable? Does Islam have a similar instruction?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but no, Limer, it's down to interpretation of what "modest" means and that's culturally specific.

Dionne, I'm afraid I completely disagree. And I say that from having been in a situation where I was the only women without a head covering on a couple of occasions, and felt very clear disapproval.

I bitterly resent that for myself in 21st century UK, but at least there was a specific context (work meetings with overseas groups and Muslim community groups in the UK) for this. I'll protest in every way conceivable if it becomes the case that my daughter and I cannot walk down the street (or go to school) without feeling this

Christianity instructs its followers to not broadcast their piety/good works – was it the widow’s mites parable? Does Islam have a similar instruction?

I believe so.

But presumably, like with Christianity, it doesn't necessarily always get followed by everyone.

Advertising your beliefs and good works is the rule rather than the exception.

Not restricted to the religious by any means.

I actually don't care if anyone thinks me immodest- their problem not mine.

I care very much about women and girls having choice taken away from them, and being expected to follow rules of dress, behaviour and lifestyle that are more restricting than those expected of men.

100% agree Bertrand.

The culture that demands this is obviously influencing more families to follow these rules – how is it doing this? Why can’t these girls and women interpret the modesty rule as they see fit? The conclusion I draw is that within their misogynistic culture, they are being at the very least coerced, and in extreme cases, forced.

Why is our society turning a blind eye? Because we’re terrified of being accused of racism. And in the meantime, a new generation of little girls is denied the opportunities they deserve, and is raised to be the veiled servants of men. Sigh.

Many muslims see hijab as a way to spread islam. There's a word in arabic for this but I can't remember it, that people will notice the hijab, become curious and ask about it, creating an opportunity to start a conversation and hopefully spread the word, so to speak.

But very many Muslim women do not cover.

No Enthusiasm, I am not suggesting that all women, all Muslim women or even all Muslim women who cover their hair judge other women. That would be really stupid. Some do, some do not. Women are not a homogenous mass.

There is definitely a feminist angle to this, absolutely, 100%.

There is also, IMHO, a wider issue that sits alongside. I don't want my daughter to be seen as immodest because she wears normal Western clothes. I also don't want my son to be seen as inappropriate if he engages in normal Western practices such as shaking hands with a non-family member female.

Olennas, what are you bitterly resentful about?

I thought Oleannas' post was admirably clear. Perhaps a reread?

I agree, there are some women and many more men who have pejoratively judged me for not having my hair covered.

There have also been men who have physically threatened me, actually attacked me, spat on me and verbally abused me because I was uncovered.

Admittedly, those incidents did not happen in European countries but the exponential increase in extreme covering plus the influence of Wahabbism makes me worry that it is only a matter of time until women are gently invited to show modesty and respect by adjusting their dress.

After all, it is already happening in Germany

farty what's happening to women in Germany makes me feel sick. I can't believe women and girls are being told to cover up instead of men told not to sexually assault and harass.

Exactly. We are seeing a revival of the old "you could tell she was asking for it" trope, but a thousand times worse, as it's not now women wearing a short skirt or a low cut top, but women dressing pretty conservatively by Western standards who are being deemed "immodest" (and by implication and extension "up for it")

And, rightly or wrongly, my personal feeling is that women who choose (after all, there is, we are assured, absolutely no coercion or pressure involved) to cover in the west are, to my mind, colluding in this.

It is a relatively new phenomena in Europe and one that makes me extremely uncomfortable.

The absolute sinister silence from the 'feminists' (oh, I don't like that T-shirt, resign!') has been bollocks.

Check out Ghazala Khan. A Muslim woman, with her head covered, talking about being strong and not oppressed.

But that doesn't fit with the Islamophic narrative on MN.

"But that doesn't fit with the Islamophic narrative on MN."

noname Do you think it's wrong for women to discuss growing trends in society and how they fit into the ideals that have been established over centuries?

Aged 5 and above wearing headscarves? That's nothing! Around where I live,I have seen TODDLERS,who cannot be older than 2, wearing headscarves. It makes me sad,and yes,it also makes me angry that they think it necessary to cover up a girl's 'sexuality' at such a young age.

The world is full of examples of impressive women who wear hijab.

Like it is full of impressive women who wear high heels and make up or use botox or have had boob jobs.

My aunt, devout, been to Mecca, fasts, gives to charity, etc does not cover her head in the US or when she comes here. Neither did grandma. The attitude is that you cover so that you do not stand out.

Where she lives you will get collared by the morals police and could get yourself arrested. The arabification of their culture has caused this. The feeling is that this is dressing up from another culture/era to copy another countries' interpretation of the religion.

I do not like to see little girls covered. It is supposedly to stop men's naughty sexual thoughts? Yuk. I have even seen a baby in a pram with a headscarf on her head.

It's part of the rise and influence of Saudi wahhabism

That does confuse me somewhat. If I were to throw myself head and heart into religion I'd want to go the whole nine yards. Frankly what I see of Saudi life for women makes my blood run cold. If that is what is held up as the yardstick of religion then I'd run for the hills.

You can't really pick and choose what laws or reduces you want to follow, and when you are told 'this is the real deal, God says so' then how can you not follow their example? Saudi funds an awful lot of education and worship facilities worldwide because it is such a filthy rich state. And yet the stories we hear about the members of their 'ruling house' makes the Borgias look like the Waltons.

If it were poor they would be seen as the weird sect if Islam from some dodgy wee country. Probably viewed like the Amish or Plymouth brethren - odd, backward looking, inward facing people that you'd cross the road to avoid.

There was a piece in the Sunday times about shop displays and ads in Saudi - women's faces, hands, feet etc were pixilated (not men or children) as if they were so grotesque or shameful they oughtn't be seen. Absolutely awful.

I agee mavis and it's my problem really with religion (apart from just missing the religion gene, I just am incapable of belief). If any of it is the word of God then surely you can't pick and choose, all religion must logically lead to extremism, surely?

If any of it is the word of God then surely you can't pick and choose, all religion must logically lead to extremism, surely?

Well it depends on the text. Also as religious texts are often written by different people at different times and are basically interpreting what they thought was said, there are a lot of contradictory and often vague messages so you have to pick and choose and interpret. That's certainly true with the bible.

Aayan Hrsi Ali makes a good point about wearing the veil in the West. She argues that Mohammed's intention in telling his wives to cover (and cover what exactly - that's not even clear) was so that they wouldn't attract attention by standing out.

AHA points out that by that logic one attracts more attention to yourself in the West by covering.

My point is one is forced to look at texts and pick, choose and interpret according to one's own opinions and those passed onto you by your culture. So extremism isn't always the logical conclusion.