Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

Limer and Bord, of course I totally get where you are coming from. There is a spectrum of choice that goes from full state controlled force to tiny little coercions such as "between you and God" and seeing other women do it.

Same for sports. They are countries that actively discourage girls from sport for "modesty" reasons whilst others simply fail to provide the environment / encouragement that female sports need to flourish.

The question is though, if you are at the moderate end of the spectrum do you have a moral duty to recognise that your relatively free choice impacts on those who don't have the freedom of choice at all?

One issue is normalisation. One Muslim lady told me that she felt other Muslim women didn't like her for covering because their husbands used her as an example to pressure them into covering. But does that mean that this Muslim woman bears responsibility? I don't know.

We have to balance our individual choices (which we are privileged to have in our liberal society) with the impact that we know our choices have on others around us.

their wives to wear scanty clothing but for some reason that is never considered oppression

Of course it's oppression! It's just much easier to pick a covered woman out of a crowd than a skimpily dressed one, because many, many young women dress skimpily including me pre DC haha so there's no way to 'tell,' like I said upthread about not knowing over the phone if someone had a face covering.

This is a really interesting talk (ignore the provocative title) where Mona Eltahawy argues, amongst other things, that the liberal rhetoric of choice feminism is being used against itself to justify practices that are ultimately unfair to women.

In simpler terms : not every choice is a feminist one just because a woman makes it.

May I ask a question? Do forgive me if it's already been answered.

I studied Islam at my Muslim school in KSA, and struggled to accept certain tenets which sat uncomfortably with my nascent 15-year old feminist views.

I was taught that Islam is the final Abrahamic religion, complementing but superior to, Judaism and Christianity, therefore it should be accepted as the 'most truthful' of the ways in which we are instructed by a god (should you choose to believe in the existence of one) here on earth.

I was always assured that women were, ultimately freer under this religion. That we had many choices.

Some Muslims on this thread have reassured me that their daughters are free to choose the hijab, niquab, abayah, veil.

How free, in your family, would your daughters be to choose not to follow a religion at all?

The wearing of a headscarf is to protect ones modesty

To choose to do so when an adult fine

But what has a child to protect

This increase in women fully covering (and some teenagers) is the impact of ultra conservative Islam that has no place in a progressive society as there is nothing progressive about keeping women invisible or young girls keeping their modesty

And many people (sadly not all) would see a man forcing his partner to dress in clothing that might gain her attention as being controlling

Not all will view it that seriously and probably excuse the behaviour as being a little silly as down to him needing an ego boost

My niece asked me the other day why her teacher covered her head. I had absolutely no idea how to explain this to her without being dismissive of the teacher. It was only the that I realised how headscarves and other modesty protectors annoy the hell out of me. How do you explain this to a 6 year old who runs around in shorts, t-shirts and flowing hair that some people have to cover up and some people don't without being nasty about anyone?

I would just have said because she's a muslim and she believes it's best for her as part of her religion. I actually find it harder to explain crucifixes (we aren't in the UK and there are a lot here) to my non-believing children (we are atheists). "Why is that man up there, are they hurting him?". Yes, he is being slowly killed "why?".
But all religions sound a bit mad if you explain them as a non-believer.

"Because she's a Muslim and some Muslim women wear headscarves"

BUMBLE you asked: "How free, in your family, would your daughters be to choose not to follow a religion at all?"

if my children leave home as adults committed to the 5 pillars of islam il be very happy. the hijab is not one of the five pillars im not as concerned about that for my daughter as i am that along with her siblings she prays the 5 prayers, fasts in ramadan, gives charity and remembers to set aside some money to perform Hajj through all the stages of her life.

if my children dont keep that, then i hope at least they would keep to a muslim lifestyle of halal food - not consuming pork, alcohol, etc - and to halal money. as in being able to get a halal job and earn a halal income and not be susceptible to haram means of earning money even if its plentiful or they lose out by not entering into them.

but even in my own generation, the percentage of retention of the muslim faith from one's parents is 77 per cent: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17023858
so almost a quarter of my generation brought up in a muslim family already have left the religion. im not naive to think that my children will automatically follow my faith. theres a saying of muhammad (pbuh) to do with child rearing...

"Play with your children for 7 years, then teach them for 7 years, then be their friend for 7 years, then let them go as you've discharged your duty to Allah".

so i have my comfort that if they decide later on not to follow religion or even believe in God, then that is between them and God. i cannot compel them or force them, the Quran is absolutely unequivocal about that:

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. " (2:256)

"Had your Lord willed, all those on earth would have believed altogether. Would you then (O Muhammad), compel people, so that they become believers?" (10:99)

''Had God willed, they would not have taken others besides Him in worship. And We have not made you a watcher over them nor are you set over them to dispose of their affairs." (6:107)

"Say: it is the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" (18:29)

"Verily, this is an admonition, therefore whosoever will, let him take a Path to His Lord" (73:19)

"Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord." (25:57)

"Nay, but verily it (the Quran) is an Admonishment, So let whosoever will pay heed to it," (80:11-12)

Moonstruck- at what age would you allow your children to stop following the 5 pillars?

How do you explain this to a 6 year old who runs around in shorts, t-shirts and flowing hair that some people have to cover up and some people don't without being nasty about anyone?

She doesn't 'have to' cover up, she 'choses to'.

I can only think of one woman in our family who wears the full burqa (and she does so because she choses to; her husband actually tries to persuade her not to as he thinks it may reflect badly on him, but she doesn't actually care what he has to say on the matter), others range from wearing vest tops and no scarf, to loose fitting scarf when they go out, etc. And they each chose to do that. I would love to see any of their husbands try to tell them what to wear!

timebank i really think youve made a great effort on this thread talking about the diversity of muslim women. iv been round the block on these types of threads so dont join in much as much anymore because i see from the increasingly strident tones that hearts are already hard against us. i find myself liking the african american 21st century ideology of respectability politics...

www.dissentmagazine.org/article/the-rise-of-respectability-politics

"Respectability politics or the politics of respectability refers to attempts by marginalized groups to police their own members and show their social values as being continuous, and compatible, with mainstream values rather than challenging the mainstream for its failure to accept difference."

so i spend most of my time on muslim female forums/feminist groups discussing how to achieve that.

But how does a 6yo choose the protect her modesty by covering up?
How is she even aware of the whole concept of modesty without being aware what immodest, and if she's aware then isn't it too early? And if she's not aware then how can she choose?

An adult woman, fine, whatever floats your boat, but a child? No.

moonstruck we are seeing the increase of an ideology from Islam that clashes with western ideas of progression the influence of conservative Islam in the UK is powerful

I used to be in support of women and girls making those choices now I question more where is the influence coming from

Women being invisible in society and girls choosing to keep their modesty is in no way progressive and by that I do not mean taking on western values I mean that women are not seen as equals when they are hidden in public they are seperate from the rest of society

I just find it extraordinary that people seem to be in such denial about the way many Muslim women worldwide are being treated. To suggest that all Muslim women have complete freedom to choose how they dress, behave and live out their lives is naive at best.

It's a very very small number of women that have that choice

It's certainly not the millions of women in Iran, Saudi and parts of Afganistan

Absolutely. And if I remember correctly, somebody on this thread suggested that they should move or vote for change....

"Because she's a Muslim and some Muslim women wear headscarves"

Yeah, tried that and got

"But whyyyyyyyyyyy?"

bertrandrussell wrote "I just find it extraordinary that people seem to be in such denial about the way many Muslim women worldwide are being treated. To suggest that all Muslim women have complete freedom to choose how they dress, behave and live out their lives is naive at best."

Agree. And the sadness is that its getting worse. I blame Saudi Arabia, the world's biggest exporter of religious bigotry. Much of the oil revenue is spent pushing extreme Wahabi Sunni Salafist Islam. We're going back to the 7th century :( Or following the crazed Sayyid Qutb - intellectual founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, who simply could not handle free women... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

"I used to be in support of women and girls making those choices now I question more where is the influence coming from"

and where has that influence on you to start questioning muslim women's choices come from? i say it is from a poliical class with the complicity of the media that are using you and others to generate public consent for their wars on muslim countries.
to drum it into your heads that peaceful muslims - or what are termed non violent muslims - themselves are so evil, all of them misogynistic, so as to be unreedemable. to forestall the public's sympathy about the inevitable large civilian deaths that occur and lives ruined from regime change.

as to denial russell the greater vehemence on this thread has been the denial that muslim women follow the faith and its covering rules freely.

we are in a society that rates a woman based on her looks and how much sexual capital she has - muslim women arent immune to that just the hijab and teachings on modesty inhibit how much we fall in with it. if you can accept women wear makeup for themselves not for men,
dress up attractively for themselves, not for men,
have plastic surgery for themselves, not for men,
use anti ageing products for themselves, not for men,
shave/wax all body hair for themselves, not for men,

(and i am NOT skeptical of those women, i know that there are those women who do those things for themselves)

then it shouldnt be a far leap when a muslim woman tells you she is covering her hair for the sake of herself rather than a man. as other women may dress up and it is a personal choice and a liberated choice, my dressing down is also a personal choice as a muslim and a liberated choice. in the same way that women who do not shave also feel liberated from caring about what other people may think.
or women who do not wear makeup feel liberated from caring about what other people think.
or women who dress for comfort rather than attraction not caring what other people may think.

repeat that till the cows come home timebank but its a choice that more than any other has feminists enraged and frothing at the mouth at our letting down the sisterhood.

No it's from having lived in a Muslim country, an ex being Muslim (I am an athiest it was only a problem to some Muslims) and having Muslim family and friends

Oh yes those women can just up and leave their families to live abroad and how many women are allowed (not necessarily in law) to vote

I can't support a women being invisible in society it takes away her identity

The arguments about make up falls on deaf ears here in afraid as I am well aware how many Muslim women love to wear heavy make up and designer clothes but that is not to be seen by men who don't own them or have rights over them

"denial russell the greater vehemence on this thread has been the denial that muslim women follow the faith and its covering rules freely."
Of course some women cover themselves freely. Insofar as any choice made within the context of a society is a free choice. For the record I think that many of the choices non Muslim women make about their appearance and behaviour are not as free as they think they are either- we are all conditioned by our upbringing and by societal expectations- whether it's removing body hair, wearing make up or covering. But it is outrageous to suggest that all Muslim women are able to make free choices about their dress, behaviour and way of life- it's just not true. And as a feminist, I am not going to pretend it is true in an attempt to appear "right on".

i think the continuous mention of saudi on this thread is more about the fact that peak oil is coming, we are more energy consuming than ever and its the world's largest exporter of oil. even seeing the scores of refugees from iraq, afghanistan, syria, libya etc it seems we are set on regime change and the momentum for 'liberation' is building

And, incidentally, I am always wary when rules seem to be applied to women but not men. My understanding that Muslim men and women are both required to dress modestly- men seem able to satisfy this requirement simply by wearing clothes...