Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

I dont want too see the full face banned, ironically, as much as it disgusts me. If Islam is to modernise then it needs to be done at a grass roots level. I would love to see more moderate Islamic people reject it and try to implement some equality into the religion.

For how can it properly assimilate with current Western values that men and women should be treated the same? I simply don't see how it can.

And I really fear - that until religions can do this and accept a few basic propositions e.g. Equality of women/gay people etc - the world will continue to hang on a knife edge.

DoInItFine I've asked you repeatedly directly on this thread and you've chosen to deliberately ignore my question, and mock me instead. I'll repeat it again because I've got a thick skin:

What exactly do you propose such women should do when the law enforces something they don't want in the law?

They

"God never told any woman to cover in the first place because God doesn't exist. Everyone knows this in their heart really because no one has physically heard from God. "

You are fully entitled to believe God doesn't exist, but you haven't been into the billions of people's heart to see whether they believe in God or not. And therefore you can't make such a claim.

If you find yourself imposing your values, your ideals on other women, then this is not feminism. This is not speaking up for other women or fighting for their rights. You are doing exactly what misogynists do.

Similarly, people need to realise that their own values, their beliefs, are not the only correct way of living. True tolerance is to internalise that people do have different beliefs and values, and they have every right to have those beliefs and values. We have no right to dictate to others how and what they should believe.

A non-Muslim friend of mine once said to me it seems that a few British people still haven't got over their supposed 'right' of imposing white colonial values on others. At the the time I thought it was a strange thing to say, now I'm not so sure.

MNHQ deleted my post? All I did was link to Quran 4:34 IIRC. Why was it deleted? Was it my statement that Muslims who leave Islam are subject to death? I noted Timegate a few pages back "Putting I believe very strongly in many things, such as good manners, etiquette, healthy eating and my faith. I will teach all my children all of the above, because they are so important to me. It's then up to them if they want to continue implementing that in their life. Every person, child or not, has the freedom to remain as a Muslim or not. "
Timegate, I respect and admire your attitude, but it is not Islamic. All the 4 major Sunni islamic authorities rule that the punishment for apostasy is death. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam (and I can just imagine what Khomeini would rule, from the Shia branch! :))

a few British people still haven't got over their supposed 'right' of imposing white colonial values on others. At the the time I thought it was a strange thing to say, now I'm not so sure

That's about as fair as me saying a few Muslims haven't gotten over their supposed 'right' to cover me up, or murder me. I.e. It's a cheap shot.

If you find yourself imposing your values, your ideals on other women, then this is not feminism

If you find yourself imposing restrictive dress codes on little girls, you can expect to find people in a society that pays lip service to equality to have a problem with that.

You keep claiming that all women in England are safe from misogyny and male violence.

It is a lie, clearly.

But we are safer here than in many parts of the world.

And part of that is that we don't allow parents to harm their children through religious or cultural practice.

Well, not officially anyway.

So no, sorry. You don't get to advocate covering up little girls for reasons of religious modesty and have everyone accept that your religion gives you that right.

Nobody has said you shouldn't cover your own head.

True tolerance is to internalise that people do have different beliefs and values, and they have every right to have those beliefs and values.

Yes.

"True" tolerance is the tolerance of intolerance.

The tolerance of abuse of "their own" womrn and children.

It is the tolerance of moral relativity.

Of denial of human rights.

The creed of the fundamentalists, the homophobes, the misogynists, the sectarians.

Not all beluefs are tolerable.

The belief that wonen are second class is not tolerable to me.

I won't tolerate it.

a few British people still haven't got over their supposed 'right' of imposing white colonial values on others.

Ah, post-colonialism used to justify moral relativity and racism.

Nice try.

I'm from a colonised population myself.

That doesn't mean I want tolerance of my country's misogyny from more equal countries.

Time. We all generally tend to believe in the religions that were handed down to us by our parents. Yet we all think somehow that our religion is the correct one.

You've had a nice bonding with Lass and all that but fundamentally you believe her god doesn't exist (as in JC bein the only way truth and light and son of god). So you have been into her "heart" and decided that she is wrong. You ultimately think the same about all non Muslims but you are just more polite about saying so.

You seem like a lovely person (assigning a religion to your child aside) but really you are no different from me in that you think Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism etc are false. Monotheism is like that. You can only believe in the one.

I would hazard a guess that your niceness is a result of your personality aside from Islam and that you look to the charitable parts of Islam to bolster what you feel and explain away the not so nice warrior/slave/child marriage parts by "contextualising" because they quite rightly sit uncomfortably with you.

A belief in humanity, morals and being peaceful is a human instinct (although studies show altruism is not exclusive to humans) and we can find authority for it in religion.

Unfortunately we can find all the bad parts of our nature too and many people across the world use that bad stuff to justify some very nasty actions from attacking abortion clinics to enforcing child marriage because Mohammed supposedly did it.

That is why it is legitimate to question religion and request that people do not assign a religion to children until those children have grown up and developed the critical thinking required to look at the issue. It's unfair to assign a religion to a child because they accept things that people tell them and it takes a lot of headwork to reject that. I know because I had to go through it.

When feminists from more equal countries offer help to women from mine, I am glad and grateful that they care.

Not getting in a strop about my right to be subjugated by the men who have sought to control me.

And I do not enjoy having the women who collude in that subjugation setting themselves up as spokespeople for my kind.

DoInItFine you didn't answer my question again! This was probably the third or fourth time I asked you the direct question, and you deliberately chose to ignore it and mock my suggestion instead. This is it for me, I'm not wasting my time talking to you. Goodbye.

"You keep claiming that all women in England are safe from misogyny and male violence.

It is a lie, clearly."

I've never claimed that! Go on give me the quote where I said that. In fact don't do that because I'm done with talking to you online. Please stop making up things about what I said. I pointed out very frankly here that people from my Indian culture have a problem with misogyny, and domestic violence.

However, I would still be up to meeting you in person, so please do DM me to arrange that!

They goodness, you appear to claim to know me better than I know myself. How enlightening!

"You've had a nice bonding with Lass and all that but fundamentally you believe her god doesn't exist (as in JC bein the only way truth and light and son of god). So you have been into her "heart" and decided that she is wrong. You ultimately think the same about all non Muslims but you are just more polite about saying so."

I haven't been into her heart and decided she is wrong, I have no right to judge whether she is right or not. I don't go around judging what's in people's hearts like you just did previously.

Just as I choose to teach my child about all faiths, you also choose not to teach your child about all faiths. Think about that. And also if you really believe children are so gullible, then you haven't my kids!

My polite recommendation would be you read more about Islam and then make a judgement on whether my characters or mannerisms are part of my faith or not. My faith (Islam) does make me a better human being. That's my experience.

We need to stop conflating the wearing of a headscarf and female opression.
Yes, some people (men) force body covering as a means of suppression. In others it is freely chosen as a way to follow the path of the words of the Prophet Mohammed. It is not a one size fits all conclusion that can be drawn from it.

And some men force their wives to wear scanty clothing but for some reason that is never considered oppression.

If a man forces a woman to wear something or nothing then it is abuse. It is not 'opression'for one man to force a woman to wear scanty clothes but abuse. And not excusable.

I'm sick of religions having the trump card in all of this. Back to the OP, there are many thousands of little girls living in the UK whose life experiences are being severely limited due to religious clothing. They can't swim, they can't join in games or sports, they can't have a water fight with their friends. All because their parents impose a fictional belief system upon them. That is ALL WRONG.

And some men force their wives to wear scanty clothing but for some reason that is never considered oppression.

It is considered outright abuse, nobody would use a euphemism like "oppression" to cover that kind of coercion.

Coercive control is a crime in this country.

Limer

"there are many thousands of little girls living in the UK whose life experiences are being severely limited due to religious clothing. They can't swim, they can't join in games or sports, they can't have a water fight with their friends."

Where is your evidence for this? It's a huge claim to make! All the Muslim girls I know whose parents can afford for them to take part in those activities, do above. My daughter goes swimming every week, and wears exactly what other children wear when swimming.

I am from a practising Muslim family and wore hijab and did all those things, and still do! Only difference is my body is more covered when swimming, and I still play sports and go running. My headscarf (hijab) does not restrict me, and if my daughter chooses to wear hijab, it won't restrict her either.

"Just as I choose to teach my child about all faiths, you also choose not to teach your child about all faiths. Think about that. And also if you really believe children are so gullible, then you haven't my kids!"

I NEVER said I don't choose to teach my child about all faiths. I just don't teach him to believe in them. That's a huge difference.

Your kids are no doubt intelligent but they have no framework beyond what they see and what they are taught by their elders. Was I gullible to believe in Jesus because my elders told me to? By that reasoning the kids who were abused by catholic priests and were too ashamed to speak out because they had bought the hell and damnation lie were gullible too?

No, before you assume, I'm not comparing your lovely liberal bringing up of your children to child abuse. I'm sure your way is drastically less harmful and perhaps has all the benefits of a nice community. But it will still be insidious in small ways. Take your comments assuming that your DD will choose to wear the hijab when she is older and that personally you'd encourage her to do so. Do you think your opinions will have no effect on her? Do you think that she will not at some point look around and ask why boys aren't wearing hijab? Just like all girls at some point look around and ask why naked pictures of women not men abound on the front covers of magazines and newspapers? And when you equate the wearing of hijab to doing as God asks do you not think that she will on some level want to please you by doing the same? Let's not have the illusion of a totally free choice because it doesn't exist.

As for your polite request that I learn about Islam I've been learning about it on and off since I was a teenager. It has some lovely bits and was comparatively feminist in its day (compared to Christianity at that time for sure). Aisha turned out to be an inspiring force and Mohammed loved her a great deal perhaps more than his other wives and concubines. But there are some dark bits too which i suspect you recognise because you've tried to explain them away.

In the interests however of learning more about Islam let me pose you a genuine non-goady question: are there any aspects of Mohammed's life/sayings that make you feel uncomfortable? And if so, how do you square them with your values of fairness and equality? I stress again that I'm not baiting as I am genuinely interested in your answers.

timegate

Excellent that your daughter wears the same as her friends when swimming. When will you make her cover up like you do, at what age? What do Muslim women swimmers wear? Is it that "burkhini" thing that was in the news last year?

Would a Muslim woman be disobeying her god if she were to wear just a conventional swimming costume? Or a sports vest and shorts? Dance leotard? I'm mentally putting two and two together here as to why Muslim women are conspicuous by their absence in all sporting activities.

Limer, in Time's defence she isn't planning to "make her cover up" but just to encourage her to do so.

And would be fine if she didn't.

timegate
You have said that you believe God commands you to wear the hijab. So, you can talk about being open-minded and saying your daughter has a choice, but basically it surely comes down to the fact that you believe this is a command from God. So, surely disobeying this command is going against God? In which case, where is the freedom to choose and still be muslim?

But they how much choice is there really? Her mum wears it, her mum believes it's a requirement set down by God, her mum hopes she will wear it, how much free choice will her daughter exercise in this?

I take your point They

But hypothetically, if a Muslim girl, at age 5, wanted to join a swimming club, take up ballet dancing, play football/netball/beach volleyball - and wear the normal kit for all of these - would that be OK with her mother? Would it be OK with her god? What about at age 10? Age 15?

And, you said before time that there is no compulsion in religion, how can this be squared with death for apostasy? I'm not attacking you or islam, but surely it's like all religions, contradictory, unpleasant in parts but with the unfortunate logical conclusion that if you believe some of it to be the word of God you must believe all of it, leading you down the extremist path. The logical conclusion of any religious belief is extremism surely. Was God wrong when he called for non believers to be killed? Can you pick and choose to suit you?

"rce their wives to wear scanty clothing but for some reason that is never considered oppression"
Of course it is. A man imposing a dress code- or anything else- on a woman is oppression.

"Hmm, yet Israel seems to kill Palestinians as and when it pleases but is pretty much left to its own devices, as it wants to sort them out itself. Font see you falling over backwards addressing that issue." I do. I am regularly flamed for it. I do not, however, see the connection.