Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

I think in some ways covering almost sexualises, as it draws attention to women as this object that men can't control their lust around. And it's like I said, once you start on that slope then your logical conclusion has to be burkhas and purdah. Where do you stop?

If 6yo girls need to wear a hijab to dress modestly, that implies (to both the boys and girls) that my DD who will never wear a hijab is dressed immodestly. That's one reason why it is my problem how other people dress their children

Yes, the implication that in jeans, a high necked and long sleeved top but uncovered hair I am "immodest" (and so what.....it's my fault if I get raped?) really pisses me off.

I saw a family today - dad in jeans and t shirt and mother in niqab, black robes and gloves. They had a son and a daughter and I just wanted to steal the little girl away. What sort of future does she have?

And while I have many, many times seen that situation (man dressed in western clothes, woman covered to some extent) I have never seen it the other way round with a man in traditional Muslim dress accompanied by a woman in shorts and t shirt. That suggests to me it's rooted in sexism.

Where is the thread denouncing the lifestyle of the orthodox Jews living in places like Stamford Hill? Or is it just that Islamophobia is so much more socially acceptable, when cloaked in the words of 'concern' for women and girls.

Such bollocks.

"Where is the thread denouncing the lifestyle of the orthodox Jews living in places like Stamford Hill"

I will join any thread which challenges the abuse/subjugation of women for religious, cultural or any other reasons. I think the way some Jewish sects treat women is utterly unacceptable.

No, I am neither islamophobic or anti Semitic. I have been called both by people seeking to defend unacceptable behaviour on grounds of religion or culture. . It is a classic silencing technique designed to make liberal minded people uncomfortable and question themselves. Fortunately, I am old and confident enough to see through it.

noname when the north London school said pupils could not be driven by their mothers, there was plenty of condemnation on here.

I have to say (and we are in the realms of anecdote here) that I have never seen the equivalent of an orthodox or Hasidic Jewish woman accompanied by a man in normal western dress - I've only ever seen families or groups of "equivalent" orthodox dress.

'Islamophobia' is a daft concept. No ideology deserves protection from prejudice or questioning; it's people that deserve protection from prejudice.

I will defend to the hilt any Muslim person being maltreated because of their religion, but the religion itself is no more exempt from questioning or criticism than Catholicism, Thatcherism, orthodox Judaism or clean eating. Stop trying to shut down legitimate debate.

Unless you'd like the UK to bring back blasphemy laws?

And I live near the place where a group of Orthodox children had to be rescued by the lifeboat because they ignored warning signs and went cliff walking in wildly unsuitable shoes and the adults in charge rang the centre they came from in London rather than rescue services for help. There was, shall we say, a certain amount of local criticism for them putting both children and rescuers at risk......

I'm muslim myself and i have no idea why.. Personally i think its wrong from a young age, they should be able to make there own decisions but then again it may be if it is an islamic school or something. From the age of puberty it is a must that girls should start to pray etc and practice islam as they are seen as young women from there on. But other than that i don't know why they do it so young

I was reminded of this thread when I saw Trump on the news telling the world about his sacrifice - which was greater than that of a Muslim soldier who had died.

And suggesting that the grieving mother wasn't speaking because her husband hadn't allowed her to.

People like Trump and some on this thread have seriously messed up ideas about Muslims. The idea that the Saudi government care or even pay attention to British women is laughable. But some women just like having a go at other women, particularly Muslim women.

The implication that in jeans, a high necked, long sleeve top, but uncovered hair, that I am "immodest" (and so what......it's my fault if I get raped) really pisses me off. Who implied this to you Hermione and how?

bert, you said
I do expect them to acknowledge that such countries exist. And I do expect them to entertain the possibilty that the covered woman in the street next to them might not be making such a free choice as they are.

I find it really sad that you have not had the opportunity to speak to a muslim woman in real life. Of course, most muslim women and non muslim women alike, know that countries like Saudi Arabia have rules where the women must cover.

Most muslim women and non muslim women also know that whilst one person is making the choice to cover, then it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the next woman may not have that freedom of choice.

The question is, what do you expect or would you like to impose on the muslim covering woman with freedom of choice, to do about this? Why does the responsibility for someone else's wrongs lay on that woman?

Also, when has a muslim woman who covers out of choice ever refused to accept those 2 points? No muslim woman has denied that those 2 things never happen. Huge numbers of muslim women dont actually know of women who are forced to cover, but they dont deny that it may not happen. It is such an absurd point to make. You seem to have your own prejudices and strereotypes of what you think about muslim women. You do not see the as individuals but a group that bears collective responsibility for the sins of men.

"The question is, what do you expect or would you like to impose on the muslim covering woman with freedom of choice, to do about this? Why does the responsibility for someone else's wrongs lay on that woman?"

1. Nothing. A simple acknowledgement is all that's necessary. And neither of the two Muslim women who have posted prominently on this thread have been prepared to do that. They have both spoken eloquently about their own freedom to choose, but not addressed the fact that other women, both in this country and worldwide do not have the same choice. They have also not been prepared to address the cultural and societal pressures that often make all our choices less free than we think they are- and how this might affect their own daughters.

1. It doesn't. And at no point have I said it did.

I guess feminism now means being OK with a woman "choosing" to wear a full veil, walk behind her husband like an obedient dog and dress her child in a restrictive garment whilst the males wear shorts and sandles. I see that daily where I life and it really boils my piss.

Which, when you think of the struggles by our fore-mothers, is pretty depressing.

It's why I stopped reading the Guardian last year and why much feminist chat on MN is so pathetic.

This is a difficult, complex issue. As are all issues where religion, society and culture intersect and conflict.

But we need to talk about these things, and look clearly at the choices we make and the impact our choices might or might not have on other women. That's one of the things feminism is about. And one of the things that makes it difficult.

dione

Yes, the implication is I can be covered head to toe, but if my hair is uncovered I am immodest. That's the flip side of women covering their hair for "modesty". I'm not sure what should happen to infidel women who are immodest. I think one of the hadiths says you can take us for slaves, but I'm sure someone can enlighten me.

FWIW I have lots of Muslim friends and relatives, but none of them cover their hair because they think it's a restrictive medieval practice.

bertrand tis true. Perhaps there are different branches of feminism. Is it the so-called cultural relativism?

Why are feminists happy to put basic women's rights under a bus in the name of religion?

I have decided I must be mad as I can't read the Guardian without wondering if I live on a different planet.

"But some women just like having a go at other women, particularly Muslim women."

Nobody is "having a go" at anyone on this thread. Women are allowed to question and challenge each other and disagree with each other! That's another thing feminism is about. It's not "You do what you think is right- any choice made by a woman is automatically a feminist choice" It's about "an examined life".

Hi. Back to the OPs question, wrt little girls in headscarves. I noted this from the Independent yesterday:

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/afghanistan-child-marriage-afghan-cleric-religious-offering-a7164826.html?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

The Indy is too right-on to mention where this behaviour comes from (As Mo (50+) married Aisha (6) and Mo's teachings are relevant now and forever...) but other sources are clearer: www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/259971/child-marriage-iran-dr-majid-rafizadeh

I dont want to "bash" Islam or upset Muslims but the Islamic faith has issues, and we are not - in my view - doing our human duty unless we point these out.

Hermione, who implied that you are immodest for not covering your hair and how did they imply it?

When women say they choose to cover up for reasons of modesty, they imply those who don't are immodest IMO. Feel free to disagree, but I think that's the logical conclusion of "I do x because I want to be y. You don't do x therefore you're not y"

No, when women say they choose to cover for modesty reasons(be it head covering, or long sleeved, high necked tops), they are telling you why they have made that decision for themselves. You have inferred that they judge you as immodest.

Dione are you suggesting that all women who choose to cover don't judge women who don't