Little girls in headacarves

[Tallulahoola]

Can anyone tell me why very young Muslim girls - Year 1 and above - wear headscarves and what it signifies?

I went to school with a lot of Muslim girls and a couple with very religious parents started wearing headscarves when they reached 13 or so. I always assumed this was because they had reached puberty so were considered to be young women, and as such were dressing modestly.

Skip to now and I see a lot of girls aged 5 and above wearing headscarves at the local primary schools. Is there a concept of a modesty at this age? Does it mean their parents are extremely religious? Or is it particular to certain communities (the parents are from Somalia and I think from Bangladesh, whereas the community I grew up around was Pakistani)

"The arguments about make up falls on deaf ears here in afraid as I am well aware how many Muslim women love to wear heavy make up and designer clothes but that is not to be seen by men who don't own them or have rights over them"

i already said muslim women arent immune to it its just the hijab and teachings on modesty inhibit how much we fall in with it.

i laughed at your last sentence russell, its actually its more right-on and popular to make digs at muslim women's modest clothing choices.

you know what it reminds me of ironically? those threads where women who are happy with working in prostitution are constantly told they are lying and oppressed, or even that 'you may be fine but how many other women working in prostitution are not fine'. i had sympathy with those women disbelieved though our life choices are certainly different! or maybe not so different, some radical feminists say marriage is just long term prostitution anyway dont they?

its the hypocrisy of current mainstream feminism though. the type that castigate the muslim woman for letting the side down for modestly covering but is live and let live for all other women's clothing choices. smiling benignly at a little girl wearing bikini top and daisy dukes but sheer hostility to a little girl wearing a headscarf like her mum.
iv seen threads mocking muslim women for wanting female only spaces then threads at same time claiming women need safe spaces from transwomen as well as normative men.

I don't doubt you have seen hypocrisy

But not everyone that is against the growth of the influence of conservative Islam has no knowledge of Islam or experience of living in a Muslim country

"My understanding that Muslim men and women are both required to dress modestly- men seem able to satisfy this requirement simply by wearing clothes..."

Yes the Quran entreats men to lower their gaze and be modest before it tells women to, and asides from the headcover, my husband like me wears long sleeves and full length trousers, never shorts or t shirt as he regards that as immodest for himself. for our daughter we will leave it upto her to decide whether to wear a headcover or not because to us the 5 pillars are most important.

moonstruck- how about you address some of the points people on this thread have made, rather than points that other people have made on different threads?

"But not everyone that is against the growth of the influence of conservative Islam has no knowledge of Islam or experience of living in a Muslim country"

some people take advantage of the majority's ignorance about such places to win kudos for themselves. by playing on people's stereotypes of muslims for personal gain. there is a ready audience for stories of barbaric muslims, a relationship of 'you scratch my back i scratch yours' between neoliberals banging the drums for war and 'ex' muslims wanting the acceptance of the metropolitan middle classes. easier than to scour the pigment from ones skin.

im actually sympathetic to those without papers seeking asylum or refuge, during the cold war it was denouncing communism now it is about denouncing islam. i dont judge them. i know converts to islam who come in for financial or social advantage as i know people who leave islam for financial or social advantage.

not saying this is you enthusiasm because iv seen the tone of your posts here and other places and i dont think your like that at all.

Once again- a complete refusal to engage with the thread...........

its the hypocrisy of current mainstream feminism though. the type that castigate the muslim woman for letting the side down for modestly covering but is live and let live for all other women's clothing choices. smiling benignly at a little girl wearing bikini top and daisy dukes but sheer hostility to a little girl wearing a headscarf like her mum.

Oh for the fucking love of God, how many times do we need to say this and how hard is it to understand the following?!:

Feminism does not seek to target the individual woman for the individual choices she makes but instead seeks to analyse and dismantle the underlying ideology and cultural values that lead to women being faced with choices that are unequal to men's.

And yes there is a growing strand of feminists who take against the neo-liberal Thatcherite view that all choices are individual and are neither influenced by nor have an effect on the rest of society because that view is plainly wrong and can be dismissed by spending 5 minutes looking at history and its changing trends.

But that doesn't mean we want to go round bashing ordinary regular people who go by the rules. But it's right to critique this bonkers idea that we all make happy free choices in a vacuum.

This applies as much to the daisy dukes scenario as much as it does to the hijab one. Check out the posters who are anti-hijab and I bet you they'll feel the same about the over sexualization of girls an women.

And please, no one has shown hostility to actual 5 year old girls who wear hijab/ daisy dukes. Why would you say such a thing unless you're trying to frame feminism according to your own agenda?

but russell what acknowledgement have i gotten so far for addressing those points except that the topic jumps to another subject?

but il address the increasing number of countries enacting apostasy laws by asking you to consider the rise of donald trump. a right wing demagogue not using religion as his rallying cry but racism. how in a rich educated country like america with a majority who voted for a black president can there be an audience for such a man?
because theres a sizeable amount of people who are hurting from unemployment and stagnant wages, widening gaps between rich and poor so the racist and anti immigrant rhetoric finds ready and willing ears because it comes as a simplistic solution. It is a well known recognised phenomenon by sociologists that during recession and times of scarce resources xenophobia, racism and anti Semitism increases.

right wing demagogues of varying extremism stoke up this fear of us vs them - to drum up support the world over. Its also a common tactic when trying to pass unpopular measures or laws to first scaremonger and make the population fear an enemy so that the Primeminister/President can paint himself as the nation's protector. Paternalism and patriarchy, so we leave him to it as he knows best and wishes the best for us because he's unafraid to go after the unpopular minority here.

in the west based on race and immigration, in the muslim world based on religion. some leaders of muslim countries when faced with small manoeuvring space to affect physical material improvement to their citizens lives decide to 'defend the nation's values' by making a scapegoat. its much cheaper if nothing to make laws victimising a minority - muslims in the UK, atheists in the muslim world - for the sake of the majority's "security" and "moral values" than it is to provide jobs or healthcare. likewise, a law forcing all women to wear hijab is to put a con on the people that a 'religious party' is in government so 'expect hunger, crime, poverty and destitution all to decrease soon folks!' muslim leaders do this often not just for economic benefit but also to divert attention from their own corruption by portraying themselves as champions of cultural/religious values. using religion and culture for political gain

And another thing you may want to consider is that whilst many people here may disagree with the principles of wearing the hijab very few if any actually advocate the banning of it. How is that for your idea of intolerant militant feminists?

"but russell what acknowledgement have i gotten so far for addressing those points except that the topic jumps to another subject?"

You havn't addressed them. You just talki about what other people may have said on other threads.

While refusing to address the issue of whether Muslim women worldwide have freedom to dress, behave and live however they want to. And confirming my point that Muslim men are able to conform to "modest dress" by wearing clothes - rather than than by "covering".

apostasyandislam.blogspot.co.uk/ - most of the scholars mentioned are orthodox sunni or shia scholars, so opposition to modern apostasy laws is not an unfounded opinion or a liberal opinion.
on actually changing religions halfway through or whenever, the Quran mentions this also in two places

"And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion." (3:72)

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." (4:137)

but the Quran never ever describes a worldly punishment either death penalty or anything else for people who change out. this is the biggest argument against the apostasy laws in muslim countries.

I've read through this thread and a few points I'd like to make:

1. Muslim women or any other women for that matter, don't need dictating to, nor do they need defend how they dress their own children. They don't tell you how to dress your children, stop telling them how to to dress theres. Basically mind your own bloody business

1. The point you folks keep repeating to the Muslim women on this thread who have very patiently replied all of your questions (despite you ignoring their questions) is that they are responsible for the women who don't want to wear headscarf in some countries where the law obliges them to wear a headscarf. Do you expect them to go and over throw that government? If you are so keen on that approach, why don't you go yourselves and do it?

And are you naive enough to think if British Muslim women stop wearing hijab, somehow Saudi Arabia is going to change its law?! Get real!

1. The amount of islamophobia and anti-Muslim and Islam sentiment on this thread is shocking. There are some posters on this thread who'd rather see that Islam and Muslims just didn't exist.

I admire the patience shown by the Muslim posters but honestly you are just waiting your time. They don't respect you, nor your views, as evidently shown in this thread, so whatever you say to them it'll just go on deaf ears. Rather enjoy your weekend and spread your love and give your attention to those who'll take it!

and if you cant see that i have tried to answer and engage with the topics mentioned on this thread then im going to respectfully withdraw now. i hope i have given some readers points of interest to mull over.

"but il address the increasing number of countries enacting apostasy laws by asking you to consider the rise of donald trump. a right wing demagogue not using religion as his rallying cry but racism."

Why? Why would you respond that way? Are we supposed to ignore one awful thing because another awful thing is happening on the other side?

It's all bloody whatabouttery.

thanks giantcar, "They don't respect you, nor your views, as evidently shown in this thread, so whatever you say to them it'll just go on deaf ears. Rather enjoy your weekend and spread your love and give your attention to those who'll take it!" i will take your advice, i have had a free morning but now real life calls, peace be upon you and everyone else this Sunday.

I resent bitterly the suggestion that suggesting that not all Muslim women have complete freedom to dress, act and live as they wish is Islamophobic.

No, I do not expect Muslim women to do anything about countries where women are forced to cover. I do expect them to acknowledge that such countries exist. And I do expect them to entertain the possibilty that the covered woman in the street next to them might not be making such a free choice as they are.

And I am happy to answer any questions asked of me- if I have not, then I must have missed them.

And "respecting" somebody's views does not mean accepting them unquestioningly.

moonstruck I admire your patience, I really do. But my experience of MN posters is that they defend their right to criticise Muslim women and men, but don't like being called on it.

Happy to be called on it. Call me. I'll be back in about 10 minutes.

Bert

"I do expect them to acknowledge that such countries exist. And I do expect them to entertain the possibilty that the covered woman in the street next to them might not be making such a free choice as they are."

What evidence do you have to suggest that muslim women don't acknowledge or entertain that idea? You don't have any evidence, and clearly you are just picking on Muslim women. Find someone else to pick on.

None of the Muslims on this thread have denied that there are some Muslim women in Muslim majority countries who don't want to wear a headscarf.

If I were in charge of organising society and wished to damp down the sexual ardour of the populace I would not do so by having men and women dress noticeably differently, however modestly. I’m not sure that the flame of passion can be doused by sartorial means anyway but it seems to me that if you want to make men and women ‘forget’ about sex whilst out and about, it would be better to have everyone walking around in adrogynous clothing. So I would imagine that having everyone in drab Mao suits with short hair would do more to keep people on the straight and narrow than having one sex cover up or even both sexes covering up in markedly different ways.

I think it’s important to remember too that wearing clothes that cover your whole body is not the only way of signalling unavailability. There are other equally valid ways of expressing a wish not to engage sexually. Manner and words should be sufficient and a wish for privacy should be honoured however it is indicated. The default should in fact be to assume a lack of availability whatever a person is wearing or not wearing unless very strong unambiguous indications to the contrary are provided.

All Betrand is doing is asking that people accept that not all muslim women wear the hijab as a free choice. All your responses just "but what about this that and the other".

"What evidence do you have to suggest that muslim women don't acknowledge or entertain that idea? You don't have any evidence, and clearly you are just picking on Muslim women. Find someone else to pick on." The circumstantial evidence that none of them have actually said that they do acknowledge it, that they have said that it is insulting to suggest that Muslim women are not making a free choice to cover. Also the failure to address my point that very few of the choices we make are completely free- we are influenced by familial and societal pressures.

And are you naive enough to think if British Muslim women stop wearing hijab, somehow Saudi Arabia is going to change its law?! Get real!

My empirical observation is that more Muslims who live in Britain are becoming more accepting of covering and certainly many more cover than did, say twenty or thirty years ago.

I have Lebanese friends who have never covered, who live in Paris and comment sadly on the huge increase in covering that they too have observed in the UK.

Yes, I do think that normalising such a practice has caused a great increase in covering here, so why would not covering not influence things in places like KSA, particularly for those women who travel to Europe.

When I used to travel out there, the loos on the plane were always rammed by women ditching the abayas and putting on jeans. There was a definite feeling among my friends that it was both liberating and important to them to fit in culturally. As I did by covering there.

I felt mute and invisible and very very vulnerable being veiled and, in other Gulf states, wearing a hijab for certain meetings.

I will also say that, sadly, in my experience, covering up for 'modesty' is absolutely no defence against sexual assault, both physical and verbal.

"And are you naive enough to think if British Muslim women stop wearing hijab, somehow Saudi Arabia is going to change its law?! Get real!"

No. However, a more open and outspoken denunciation of women not being allowed to make free choices about dress, behaviour and lifestyle would at least do something towards making compulsion unacceptable.