AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

modern experimental social values.

Which are?

liberal experiment of multiculturalism,

You don't like the idea of different cultures finding common ground and recognising shared values?

Sikhs Hindus muslims also send their children to such schools

Not round here they don't. Not Christian enough.

and maybe it galls that an atheist white middle class parent cannot get their child into a faith school but a working class non white parent can because of exhibiting a faith?

What about the atheist or agnostic working class parent?

And what about, er, the kids?

If religion is so vital to morality why is 67% of the prison population religious? What's going wrong? Shouldn't it be mainly those with no faith?

because of the values they inculcate and the classroom environment,

Values which are beyond the reasoning capabilities of a non faith school?

If religion is so vital to morality why is 67% of the prison population religious? What's going wrong? Shouldn't it be mainly those with no faith?

From Mark's gospel...

When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Well Luckily for me the local christian schools do accept children of other faiths. Perhaps in your area they are seen more as a bastion of white monoculturalism and I am not naive in thinking that sometimes that might be what people subscribing to such schools are racing towards. And that the local demographic and multicultural mix is what they are running away from. I wasn't saying that was right I was just putting forward a point. As to modern experimental social values pacino as they fIlter into the classroom: the cult of the individual, moral relativism, distaste for authority figures, mass consumerism. Ive not really talked about morality except in terms of how they affect impact present day behaviour management in schools. Religions teach Altruism but also communalism - that helps in the classroom environment. Catholicism teaches faith and works are intertwined, Protestantism's focus on education, education was about enabling the layperson to read and understand the Bible themselves. It doesnt mean modern comprehensive schooling cannot teach the value of a good education but with christian schools its for 'religion' as well as the normal 'get a good job and have nice things'.
As for the example of vaccinated versus unvaccinated, again it's not about moral values on anything except in how it transmits to the conduct within the classroom. Mind your teacher even if they're unlikeable/ do it even if you don't see the point in it/ etc

So benefitting from other parents teaching their kids that awe and respect for authority, communal social values, the rights the group has over the individual without teaching your own. But also knowing that lots of children grouped together who all share that same lack of inculcation/brainwashing about the rights of the group over the individual might not help your kids learn their timestables by age 15

I still don't see how non-faith schools are inferior and less able to access kindness and instil that inherent pleasure in helping and loving people. I don't see people of faith having less material things. The problem I have is the root of the assumption that having faith means you will be better/kinder. No one has provided any evidence of this. I don't think you need to not have faith to be good and loving. It transcends what God you believe in and comes down to hating seeing people suffer inequality.

awe and respect

Actually I wouldn't be happy teaching a child to respect/believe/obey someone just because they're an adult.

But also knowing that lots of children grouped together who all share that same lack of inculcation/brainwashing about the rights of the group over the individual might not help your kids learn their timestables by age 15

Sorry, not sure what you mean? So this is about timetables?

I get that pacino, but completely in a non religious context, that tendency to respect and obey teachers is a large part of how asian economies like China/Singapore/South korea attain higher results in education compared to western results. Critical analysis and questioning is all well and good but a large part of learning is memorising facts and figures and that is time consuming especially when a teacher has to earn the respect of each pupil in the class rather than have it automatically as they walk in. one of my earliest memories was seeing my school headteacher bow her head in prayer, and by that showing respect and awe for a higher authority over herself - to "God"- when she had the highest in the school. That related that authority to a larger context for me.

I understand how that was part of your culture and you recognised it. But I don't expect people to treat people well because of their status. That is not a value I would want to install in people. As an educational practitioner I model respect and love of learning and achieving through perseverance. A religion isn't necessary and would actually introduce something I would need to explain that I couldn't. In a way it's the difference between saying 'do this and don't do that because x/y/z won't like it' and 'do this and don't do that because when we do that it makes us happy and feeling happy is good and feeling sad/angry is not nice' it's so simple.

Actually I wouldn't be happy teaching a child to respect/believe/obey someone just because they're an adult

Having been to a faith school (in another country) where students were abused by a person in a position of trust and the church authorities did their best to brush it under the carpet, I agree to a certain extent.

that tendency to respect and obey teachers is a large part of how asian economies like China/Singapore/South korea attain higher results in education compared to western results.

I am mixed about this, because I recognize that it's not at all desirable for a teacher to spend half his time babysitting. I have a number of friends that went to teach in asian countries and they all universally said that one thing that was great is that you didn't have to do any babysitting and could get on with teaching. Things just moved faster and certainly teaching was more pleasant. I was told that the teaching job is much more desirable in those countries and they cited this as a possible reason.

That being said, there have been a number of studies of business practices, especially in China, Japan and India, and this culture of respect for authority is a big hindrance to progress and competitiveness. Ideas never flow upwards, so good ideas from lower down get quashed. The other extreme are western tech companies which actively foster getting good ideas from absolutely anyone in the company.

I more agree with alan that this is not a value that should be taught to children (for the reasons I mentioned and the reasons he/she mentions), but school behaviour is a problem.

That's awful Jassy

“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

That would make sense if they had converted afterwards but it sounds like they're religious when they go into jail.

It sounds like they've ticked a box on a form.....

for others it is the relative moral and philosophical values

Which ones do you think in particular moonstruckl8?

respect for authority, communal social values, the rights the group has over the individual

I'm all for respect, I just don't think it needs to be unquestioning. You can teach a child to politely and respectfully question ideas if they don't make sense. In fact I'd have thought the class would learn more if they ask questions.

Maybe Rogue. I wonder where the stats are from. Alan, do you know?

secularists want schools where every child from every background is treated equally

That's certainly how I view it.

This thread reminds me of the words of the MP in "Rev" who starts attending church to get his kid into the attached primary school:
"On your knees...avoid the fees."

subscription of a religious group can help people not well connected by family/wealth/are lonely to tap into a wider social group that can help them and theirs as well as provide a social life.

This may well be true and is something we should perhaps address in society generally.

I haven't stormed into their living room while they're watching The Voice. They've invited a conversation.

I'm really enjoying this and hope you all are. It's interesting hearing everyone's views and ideas. I appreciate the time you're all putting into it.

I can't imagine starting this conversation at the school gates!
So it's great to have the opportunity here.