AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

So 50.2% of prisoners in the year of the report stats identified as Christian. That's not most and it doesn't tell us what 'identify as' means. There's a huge difference between ticking a box and being a practising Christian.

Moon and others have explained why parents send their children to faith schools. I have every sympathy with them, respect them for on occasion sending their DC to a faith school rather than a 'better performing' school as is the case in my own area.

I wouldn't try to talk you out of any beliefs you have that benefit you. I'm defending religion in general. And standing up for faith schools in general. I maintain that they are not likely to lead to lack of understanding or tolerance.

Religious 'belief' is about much more than evidence and knowledge. It's good to take feelings into account too. Feelings influence our behaviour.

I wouldn't ask you to justify your choice of partner either or your hobbies and interests (provided they aren't harmful)

Religious people aren't asking you to justify yourself. Leave them be!

You see no reason. Religious people aren't you! Not everything needs a reason.

Someone earlier mentioned lower expulsion rates in catholic schools because of more pastoral care.

Not because they've cherry picked their intake to exclude children more likely to have discipline and behaviour problems, concentrating those kids in other schools, then?

I'm going to get a tattoo on my forehead that reads 'correlation does not equal causation' in the hopes of getting the message out.

Alan Most prisoners identify themselves as Christian

I dutifully waded through a large chunk of your link to read 50.2% ..... That's not my understanding of most. And there isn't enough detail in that statistic to make it relevant to this discussion.

Religious people aren't asking you to justify yourself. Leave them be!

Religious posters on this thread have claimed that going to a faith school, and having a faith makes you more moral, more able to make better moral choices. Moreover they have chosen to share that opinion on a message board that they know is a place of debate. I haven't stormed into their living room while they're watching The Voice. They've invited a conversation.

Actually the poster said that some Catholic schools had the same number of boys with behaviour problems as non faith schools but much much lower rates of expulsion.

As for cherry picking their intake demographically, could it not also be that christian parents/jewish have themselves grown up in environments that are conducive to getting on in life and now wish for their children to also have those values. This isn't about morality as such but the classroom environment, China singapore even South korea have higher rates of school attainment because of cultural values that are conducive to fast learning in school. Respect for authority and the teacher, high focus on education results, sensitivity to the censure of their peers. In a class of 25-30 kids plus you need less individualism and more communalism in order to get by on less resources. If you have tonnes of resources, teaching assistants, etc, then fine. But if not then less time needs to be spent 'firefighting' and more time on teaching trig/organic compounds etc.

The point about the prison stats was that some religious posters on this thread claimed that faith made you more moral. So by default they believe that having no faith made you less moral.

Did you happen to see how many prisoners identity as having no religion?

As for cherry picking their intake demographically, could it not also be that christian parents/jewish have themselves grown up in environments that are conducive to getting on in life and now wish for their children to also have those values.

Yes, and those children are more deserving of a local school place with below average children with problems, and above average committed and well off parents, than those without those advantages are they? Poor children and more disadvantaged children are less deserving because their parents aren't good enough? Is this the empathy and compassion we've been told are the exclusive preserve of faith schools?

I suppose it's a biblically consistent position, if one is a fan of Exodus and Deuteronomy.

How is 'boys with behaviour problems' measured objectively across schools, out of interest?

It's funny, you never hear people saying 'people who can afford expensive houses near good schools are simply doing so because they have the right values to get on in life and want to pass those onto their kids by making their local state school a middle class enclave' as if it's a positive thing.

actually subscription of a religious group can help people not well connected by family/wealth/are lonely to tap into a wider social group that can help them and theirs as well as provide a social life. I mentioned aspirational working classes also, it's poor people who can't get their children into private schools or grammar schools - but want their children to move upwards socially by means of a good education- that look for faith school places not just middle class people. And the focus on education of Protestant Christianity in particular, from the earliest years of the bible being translated into English so the common man should read and understand - thus needing to be literate- that focus on educating the children of the poor is very well established

actually subscription of a religious group can help people not well connected by family/wealth/are lonely to tap into a wider social group that can help them and theirs as well as provide a social life.

So can going to a local school. Unless of course the people of faith have clubbed together to keep your kind out of the local school...

I mentioned aspirational working classes also, it's poor people who can't get their children into private schools or grammar schools - but want their children to move upwards socially by means of a good education- that look for faith school places not just middle class people.

So only aspirational working class people who are Christian deserve the chance for social mobility?

the people of faith aren't 'clubbing together' to keep your kind out of the local school these schools were there before easy public transport and over-subscription of schools. It's not a conspiracy.

Alan you seem to havemis-represented and misinterpreted your stats.

What's with all the 'aren't good enough' talk? No-one defending faith schools on this thread has said any such thing.

What's with all the 'aren't good enough' talk? No-one defending faith schools on this thread has said any such thing

They're happy enough to see disadvantaged children further disadvantaged by forcing them to schools that are more distant or perceived as less 'good', because Christians who want to go to those schools for social mobility, or faith education, or just because the intake is less challenging, are what? More deserving?

What's the moral reason for priority in admissions? How does it promote inclusivity?

the people of faith aren't 'clubbing together' to keep your kind out of the local school these schools were there before easy public transport and over-subscription of schools. It's not a conspiracy

No, a conspiracy would require it to be secret. Governors of schools who select on faith, many/most of whom are appointed by the church, are pretty open about who their admissions policies serve. It's not a secret that schools practising faith admissions get an 'easier' intake and parent body.

On the other hand telling people that they are so bad that God had to kill himself is hardly a positive message to propagate.

there are lots of nice things in christianity (emphasis on charity for example), but i agree with alan here. I didn't grow up in a christian tradition, so I find this story (in some ways the central story and moral lesson in christianity) especially troubling. The fact that a third party can forgive your sins doesn't sound like morality to me. It sounds like scapegoating. And what did Jesus do to deserve that?

Alan you seem to havemis-represented and misinterpreted your stats.

I referred to those stats in view of the posters who made claims about the need for faith to build a moral framework, and one that is superior to one built without a faith.

As yet there is no evidence of this. I concur that loving relationships are vital to building empathy but they are not the preserve of those within a faith. No one has provided any evidence that a faith is necessary when being kind and decent.

If I made a claim that people living in bungalows were better at moral decisions than people in houses/flats would you not expect me to produce some evidence? (Especially if over half the prison population were people who grew up in bungalows?)

Religious people aren't asking you to justify yourself. Leave them be!

the problem is that religious people won't let us be. It's the religious that are asking everyone to subsidise their schools. Secularists aren't asking for anything of the kind.

As far as I know, secularists want schools where every child from every background is treated equally (that, at least, is what I want). It's religious people that want concessions and special treatment. So, it's not us that aren't leaving them alone. it's the other way around.

I referred to those stats

those stats seem to suggest christians commit less crimes than other groups. The most under represented groups in prison seem to be hindus (by far and away the most under represented in prison), "not recorded", and then christians (all under represent their population). the most over represented are buddhists, muslims, and other religion. No religion and sikhs seem to be approximately the same (both slightly over represented in prison by about the same amount).

Conclusion? I think none. Lumping all the religions together seems to give a slight advantage to the religious, but my guess there is nothing significant there. Except, perhaps, we should all become hindus.

But faith schools can help disadvantaged children overcome difficult social or family backgrounds because of the values they inculcate and the classroom environment, it's not just about intake. I think modern applications to faith schools are to do with seeking a refuge against modern experimental social values. For some it might be the liberal experiment of multiculturalism, for others it is the relative moral and philosophical values. For my devout Muslim aspirational working class parents - and DHs also- sending us to christian primary schools was a lot about the reputation of christian education in being a 'good' education as well as such schools having good discipline. (Discipline maybe made easier becuase the majority of kids are taught to mind their elders more maybe.) But the key to a good education if one doesn't have wealth or requisite smarts can be a school with good discipline. and ultimately it was a good step towards social mobility for them as all their children are now working middle class jobs and lives.

So to me it isn't just about christian people or rich people seeking out christian faith schools. Sikhs Hindus muslims also send their children to such schools and maybe it galls that an atheist white middle class parent cannot get their child into a faith school but a working class non white parent can because of exhibiting a faith?

Reading this thread and others Iv often thought about those adults who don't want to vaccinate their children- don't believd in it etc- but then rely on other people vaccinating theirs in order to benefit from the herd immunity. They don't want their kids to be with a majority of non vaccinated children like them, they want theirs to be the only ones in a herd of vaccinated kids.

They don't want their kids to be with a majority of non vaccinated children like them, they want theirs to be the only ones in a herd of vaccinated kids.

And who are the children who went to faith school in this scenario pray tell? Are you insinuating that people who go through faith school are holding up the morality of the general population?

But faith schools can help disadvantaged children overcome difficult social or family backgrounds because of the values they inculcate and the classroom environment, it's not just about intake.^

It is for the kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who can't get in because their parents aren't 'right'.

For my devout Muslim aspirational working class parents - and DHs also- sending us to christian primary schools was a lot about the reputation of christian education in being a 'good' education as well as such schools having good discipline.

Sadly, you wouldn't have had the option at any of the faith schools round here. They'd much rather only have Christians, and the 'right' Christians at that.

it galls that an atheist white middle class parent

It galls many Christian white middle class parents too, we've seen them on this thread. Because it's unfair that a state funded school use religion to allocate spaces in 2016.