AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

So two people make a mistake and hurt someone. One person says sorry and tries to learn from the mistake and the other person does the same but also asks for forgiveness from God. You would say neither is morally superior? In which case what is even the point of God?

I wouldn't be surprised if children from faith schools grow up to feel superior to others Religions teach humility and gratitude so that's not very likely.

IME of knowing people from different religions, it's rare to take everything in religious books literally. It's usually taught as a product of its time. However human nature doesn't change so the core values remain.

There's more than one way to learn and achieve understanding and different levels of understanding. How can we cultivate attitudes that lead to tolerance and harmony? By helping people feel glad to be generous and peaceful. The religious practices have that effect. Eg meditation tends to be calming and increase self-awareness, the gratitude and humility of saying grace promotes a natural inclination to generosity. And so on. Knowledge of moral codes won't achieve this

Alan - I'm not a Christian, but I think I 'get' the enormous benefit of feeling loved by a 'God'. It's obviously good for self-esteem and comforting and therefore likely to reduce needy behaviours (which harm other people too) and makes it easier to be compassionate to others and yourself.

It seems to me that there's a large element of 'training' in organised religion. (No doubt those of an anti-religion persuasion will call it brainwashing) Just as we train children to wash their hands, say please and thank you etc, so religions (as far as I can see) train people to be in the habit of having attitudes and reactions which promote harmonious living.

moonstruck faith schools as a refuge I agree and it feels mean to deny parents that.

FWIW I went through a (brief) anti-religious phase. Even from a purely logical pov this is not justifiable. There's no proof of either the existence or non-existence of a divine creator. There's a whole lot more to life than 'knowing'.

therefore likely to reduce needy behaviours (which harm other people too) and makes it easier to be compassionate to others and yourself.

Would you happen to have any evidence to back up this assertion?

On the other hand telling people that they are so bad that God had to kill himself is hardly a positive message to propagate.

There's no proof of either the existence or non-existence of a divine creator.

You could say the same about unicorns, leprechauns and invisible rainbow coloured dragons which is why it's eminently sensible and logical to wait for evidence that something is real before you accept it.

A theist who uses your above stance to justify a belief in a specific God should also believe in every god/mythical being/anything anyone says which, and I'm fairly sure you'll agree, is not only ridiculous but not a position you actually take yourself.

I'm fairly certain there are many beliefs you reject without having proof that they don't exist and that you are largely a lot more logical than you portray yourself to be.

God did not have to kill himself. It was an act of supreme love. God so loved the world he sent his only son'. As I said I'm not a Christian. Perhaps a Christian will explain better. It goes without saying that none of us are imperfect.

Higher primates taken away from their mothers at an early age don't thrive and engage in harmful behaviours.

Children in foster care are much much more likely to be involved in crime/go to prison.

I think most people would agree that feeling loved/cared about is a basic need. Think for a moment about how it feels to be loved. There's nothing like it!

So far all the evidence is that we evolved along with every other species and are nothing special in the scheme of things. If there is a god behind all this we have no reason to think it is any more interested in human affairs than it is in the goings on of worms.

Children in foster care are much much more likely to be involved in crime/go to prison.

And most prisoners identify themselves as Christian.

You're confusing good relationships with a belief in God. I agree that loving relationships are good for people but not that someone who believes they have a relationship with God is more likely to feel empathy. That's a false leap of reasoning.

I don't see a problem with that.

There are lots of studies which have found that a feeling of being loved is good for our mental and physical health.

I didn't specify only empathy. It's easier to resist destructive behaviours (including self-destructive behaviours) and to be generous if your emotional needs are being met.

Many/most people who practise a religion would claim to have a very deep relationship with 'God'.

It was an act of supreme love.

But I don't need to die to forgive people who hurt me. If you hurt me and I say 'it's okay because I stabbed myself so I can forgive you' it's nonsensical. There is no logical reason why he needed to kill himself. It smacks of Bronze Age mentality of sacrificing animals to appease a God. It's actually abusive to put that on someone you love, imagine your kids are playing up and you say. 'You're being so bad it's making me want to kill myself'.

Most prisoners identify themselves as Christian? On a form to be allowed out of a cell to attend worship?

God did not have to kill himself.

I think you'll find the general christian narrative will disagree with you. Jesus had to die to let us into heaven.

No religion I know of recommends killing yourself, especially as an act of love.

Most prisoners identify themselves as Christian? On a form to be allowed out of a cell to attend worship?

So you assume they're lying to go to a church service? Have you heard of the no true Scotsman fallacy?

No religion I know of recommends killing yourself, especially as an act of love.

I didn't say that, only that the consensus is that Jesus had to die in the cross because we're all so bad.

That aside God did want Abraham to sacrifice his son in the OT...

When muslim families opt to put their kids into christian faith schools its after weighing up that the daily Practises and dogma of a different religion are outweighed by the benefits of That environment: greater school/class discipline,a focus on communal behaviour and living - especially Catholics with the idea that man is justified by works not faith alone, more pastoral care. and also that the families who opt to put their children into such schools are generally also going to be abit more involved in their children's school and out of school lives. Or conduct themselves in ways that will enhance their child's school/out of school life. Definitely for the aspirational working class who cannot opt for private school or afford the tuition for grammar school 11+, faith schools can also enhance a child's experience who would flounder in the non faith school. Someone earlier mentioned lower expulsion rates in catholic schools because of more pastoral care. Theology aside those aspects in different religions of altruism over egoism, looking out for the weaker as well as not being yourself the weak link in the group, that's what people who might not really believe or be bothered about belief are hoping to gain by attaching to that social group.

Yet Christians don't seem to go in much for sacrifice.

You asked me for evidence of the benefit of feeling loved. I was questioning your evidence for your assertion that 'Most prisoners identify themselves as Christian'. And I'd add ask further - as practising Christians?

You asked me for evidence of the benefit of feeling loved.

We're getting off topic here. Certain posters asserted that faith schooling was superior to the alternatives for teaching morals. There is no evidence for this. I can see how feeling loved and supported is good but not that it's something that is only delivered by faith. That's the objection I raise.

A theist who uses your above stance [sic no proof either way] to justify a belief in a specific God

I don't think religious people generally spend a lot of time justifying their belief - that's why it's called a belief and faith. It's their daily practice/lifestyle that impacts themselves and others. All religions know there are other religions. It's not a problem for them.

I don't ask you to justify your belief in atheism. I respect it. Hopefully you'll respect other people's beliefs too. Especially given that their practices are healthy and beneficial.

x-posted

My -very limited - experience of faith schools has been of greater pastoral care and a greater emphasis on morality. I understand that there will be faith schools that aren't like this and secular schools with a good ethos. However given that the purpose of faith is to promote 'moral' behaviour it's likely that faith schools, with their natural emphasis on 'moral' behaviour will have a very beneficial ethos.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf#page10 Data here.

Especially given that their practices are healthy and beneficial.

All the time?

Which brings me back to this thread and how some posters maintained that a faith schooling is morally superior. You think it is?

with their natural emphasis on 'moral' behaviour will have a very beneficial ethos

An ethos that a non faith school is somehow unable to access? Did you see the research into generosity and children from religious families? Why were they less likely to be generous if they are accessing the same ethos in a family setting?

I don't ask you to justify your belief in atheism. I respect it. Hopefully you'll respect other people's beliefs too.

I don't have any belief. I see no reason to believe in any religion I have come across due to lack of any evidence. There might be a god but I have no reason to think it is any way bothered about human affairs.

I will respect beliefs that I find worthy and morally sound. I can't respect any beliefs. The idea is preposterous! Would you respect a belief that it was a sin to be gay? Of course not. People have a right to believe what ever they want, but not to have those beliefs respected. Surely you see how ridiculous a position that is!?