AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

Strawberrydelight
Its those that go to private school that are our future surgeons, scientists, professors, etc. Its those who are,educated that usually end up with the high ranking professions.
My son goes to state school by the way.

I think you miss the point, niminy. But I don't care to be called absurd"- so you'll forgive me if I call it a day.

Don't go BertrandRussell! I'm really enjoying reading your comments.

It's a manifestation of the state telling children that segregation is ok. How is teaching about how to be harmonious and tolerant to the people who aren't allowed in because they're not 'right' a more effective way of encouraging tolerance and harmony than actually letting the not right people in and show how it can be done by actually doing it?

Excellent point

i think everyone pays lip service to the liberal individualist society we all live in until kids come along and suddenly realising that those values transferred to the school environment make for unruly chaotic environments for their darlings to learn in. alot of classroom teacher time is spent dealing with low level disruptive behaviour or morale issues resulting from difficult home lives rather than teaching.

then even if you dont subscribe to religious values/life you want the herd immunity of your kids being in such environments as their parents are more likely to teach and inculcate values that make it easier for their teachers to teach: respect for authority, respect for education, seeing the benefit in behaviour that helps the group rather than standing out as individual. if taught a susceptibility to the opinions and regard of their classmates than it is the negative regard in being disruptive not an admiration of being tough enough to swear at the teacher. i think different social groups look at faith schools as a refuge from different issues in modern society - postmodernism, multiculturalism, etc. as well as the stated benefits of teaching love for your fellow human being and all, the altruism at the heart of Christianity actually helps the pupils amongst themselves in the school and also helps them in the wider world in finishing school with better grades and better ability to compete for uni/work places later on.

whether faith schools get in the way of tolerance and understanding

Yes rogue, that was my original question thanks. I am really enjoying reading all the related ideas though.

respect for authority, respect for education, seeing the benefit in behaviour that helps the group rather than standing out as individual.

I can see that unquestioning respect for authority might be harder for someone not brought up in a religious environment but I can't see why respect for education or behaviour beneficial to the group would be.

Demonstration is often the most effective way of teaching.

Definitely

its certainly not the preserve of the religious but its about whether the majority of children yours are with are taught that respect. and maybe not just that but also how aberrent the behaviour of kids who arent taught those values would get.

"the buidings that it owns won't be used and will need upkeep. if the government isn't paying for it, the church will have to."

The schools would in effect become private schools. If they cease to be viable they close and the land sold off. Just as happens now.

That's 25% of schools to be kicked out of the state sector, with no plan B for families who want state education.

That really is the wrong way round to me.

If you are going to have state schooling, available to all who request a place, then you need to have enough schools for that, before you start removing unacceptable ones. Setting up the schools you want to exist is more possible now than it has been since the state school system was set up last century.

Or of course you could advocate going the whole hog, and removing parental choice altogether. Schools to be allocated the correct 'inclusive' mix (this may well mean village children bussed out to several different villages, so the the population can be balanced across the area).

(unless of course you're just having a pop at certain schools, and determined to have the last word on the thread).

Politicians will do nothing about faith schools (indeed the major parties are committed to them, Labour having east abolished their place in the the state system in the first place, and continuing to open new ones right up to the a Brown years). Or at least not whilst people vote with their feet and send their children to them.

One phenomenon vaguely related to this is with RC schools (some of which are widely shunned) matched to similar pupil demographic other schools. Of their teen boys, they had just as many troublemakers (for want of a better word). But a vastly lower exclusion rate.

That's not pupil selection, that's ethos and pastoral care. Something every school could have.

No-one on this thread has said that sending your children to a non-faith school is wrong or inferior.

Not on this thread perhaps but aren't faith schools expected to reinforce belief in children? Doesn't every religion think it has something right and superior to other beliefs. Otherwise how would they convert anyone? I wouldn't be surprised if children from faith schools grow up to feel superior to others? E.g. 'saved', 'chosen by God', 'holier than thou', 'more moral', etc.

its about whether the majority of children yours are with are taught that respect

Why do you think this is more likely in a faith school?

that's ethos and pastoral care. Something every school could have.

Yes

If you are going to have state schooling, available to all who request a place, then you need to have enough schools for that, before you start removing unacceptable ones.

Yes, I wish we could have secular ones.

Schools should be actively furthering tolerance and integration, not just avoiding intolerance and segregation.

True JassyRadlett but how?

I just can't comprehend how segregating children by religion can contribute to a more integrated society when those children become adults.

Exactly how I feel.

Now that the world is more crowded it's arguably more important that we put a lot of emphasis on living harmoniously with each other and looking after the planet.

I agree Rogue but how do you think it's best to do this?

the Bible has been the central text for our culture and so its influence pervades our culture.

Yes and it's important that we study it. In context and objectively. I realise that you don't take it literally niminy but many people of faith DO take their holy books literally.

The Bible isn't a book of instructions -that's such a narrow and restrictive view.

Creationists might disagree

I think many people take their sacred books literally Niminy.

'All Jewish law is contained in the Torah and following all these laws create exemplary behaviour.'

Are we better at living in harmony with our neighbours than our ancestors? Do we treat the earth and all its creatures with more respect? Do we take what we need and no more? Do we care better for the outcast, the lonely and the I'll in mind or body? Do we orient our lives towards what really matters or are we continually distracted by consuming things we don't need? Have we got better at not hurting other people, even those we love the most?

All important niminy but I struggle to see how a good faith school could teach this better than a good secular school.

True JassyRadlett but how?

My starting point is 'don't put up barriers to keep out the riff-raff*.'

• riff-raff in this case = heathens' kids, children of other faiths, kids from disrupted, chaotic homes, flat out poor kids, kids of single parents who do shift work on Sundays...

Are we better at living in harmony with our neighbours than our ancestors? Do we treat the earth and all its creatures with more respect? Do we take what we need and no more? Do we care better for the outcast, the lonely and the I'll in mind or body? Do we orient our lives towards what really matters or are we continually distracted by consuming things we don't need? Have we got better at not hurting other people, even those we love the most?

I'm still waiting for one clear example of a moral good you need a religion to do. I've been waiting days....

I'm still waiting for one clear example of a moral good you need a religion to do. I've been waiting days....

Christianity is about recognising that we get it wrong and accepting forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus. It's not about claiming to be more moral than anyone else, so your question doesn't apply.

moral than anyone else, so your question doesn't apply.

Not to you maybe but other Christian posters ere have postulated that a faith led education is best for teaching morals. And as yet no one can give me an example of how someone with no faith would find it harder to make a moral judgement. Makes the claim look dubious doesn't it.

accepting forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus.

See as for as I can see there is nothing moral about someone forgiving me for something I did to someone else. If I let someone down its between me and them, no one else has the right to forgive them. If you hurt me it's between you and me, no one else can say you're forgiven. If I hurt you it's not for God to forgive me, it's for me and you to forgive me. That to me is a morally superior model than the Christian model.