Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

There is simply no value to it, apart from the self gratification of the individuals who implement it. A fun morning out for the retired Christians with nothing better to do than act out plays from a story book to little kids and then try to convince them that it's all real. Then they encourage them to bow their heads and thank Mr Tickle. They aren't right in the fucking head.

im not suggesting she'll be able to unravel it now, but as she gets older she will, as long as you and her school give her the skills to critically evaluate information. you dont have to unteach her.

i am not wholly in favour of collective worship, i just dont think it's worth the frustration and upset it seems to be causing you. And i think there are some benefits to it, despite being an athiest.

Did you have a very negative experience of this at school yourself? i didn't, which is maybe why it doesnt bother me. i went to church and sunday school and various little christian organisations. And then i studied science and philosophy and concluded that my belief system didn't include a god.

what do you think will happen if she believes in God for a few years.?

you're talking with such bitterness and anger now that i realise there's no point in discussing this further, you haven't really taken on board anyone's view or reasoning throughout the thread. And i have respect for people of faith, dedpite disagreeing with them, you seem to have nothing but disdain.

im off to bed

tbh, I really can't be arsed seeing this as a huge problem. I'm not a Christian, I didn't go to a Christian school but we sang religious songs, went to church at Easter and Christmas and learnt about Jesus. It was just part of school life, but as my parents weren't Christian, I never really believed either.

Kids make up their own minds. I don't see it as any different to celebrating Christmas really.

I don't have disdain for people of faith. I have disdain for the loons who proselytise to my kids whilst they attend school. Surely I am not expected to respect them after they have so wilfully disrespected my family. I was perfectly content until my child came home and said "God does exist" and "God is all around us" it was at that precise moment that I became disdainful and began to loose respect for whoever had convinced her of this.

diddlediddledumpling you said that you think there are some benefits to collective worship, will you please tell me what they are.

Also, why do you say that I haven't taken on board anyone's view or reasoning throughout this thread ? How could you possibly know that ?

Yes, I'd like to know the benefits of collective worship in school as well.

I would also question this notion that christians are in the majority in the UK.
76% of UK the UK population say that religion "plays no part in their daily life"
( GALLUP WorldView - data accessed on 14 September 2011)

Only 10% of the UK population attend church regularly.
62% of the UK describe themselves as "not religious".
YouGov figures showed that Easter was devoid of religious meaning for most Britons, with only 13% saying that religion was the "most important part of Easter."

It takes a fertile imagination to think that describes a christian majority.

And i think there are some benefits to it, despite being an athiest.

Can you elaborate?

I am baffled as to how they are forced to pray- I think that you will find your average 4 yr old isn't. I am also baffled as to you why you have to 'unteach it'. That is just as bad. Children need to separate fact from opinion and learn to tell the difference for themselves. I was surprised on Monday to get someone ask how they knew what was true and untrue, I think without looking back, that it was about the Bible, they seemed to want someone to tell them rather than work it out for themselves.
I don't believe that God should be taught as a fact and I don't think it is. It wasn't when I went to school in 1950s and I would be very surprised if it is today when all teachers are younger than me. At one time you had to be confirmed to teach in a C ofE school but that stopped decades ago. I don't believe that you should teach there is no God as a fact either.
You should treat your child like the intelligent, enquiring person they are and discuss the subject. Ask them what they think. I am surprised that people's minds are so set in stone. I know what I believe at the moment- it isn't what I believed at 6yrs or 16 yrs and I have no idea at all what I might believe in 10 yrs time.

There are a lot of values to collective worship a lot of people seem to think it some sort of evangelical, Bible thumping hell fire type thing. Someone asked me about the Bible earlier as if I am supposed to have answers. It doesn't feature much in school assemblies- who would want to use it to talk to children about the Old Testament which is quite likely to give nightmares?

They are of value because it gives a time of quiet and a time to think. I suspect that a lot of children use it is a quiet time for private thought in a very busy day because I could bet money on the fact that if you get back to the classroom and ask them what assembly was about a good many couldn't answer. The majority couldn't answer if they are 4 yrs old. Therefore OP must have a child with a good memory if they retain enough to 'unteach'. This doesn't mean that it was a waste of time- maybe they were a child like me who loved time to daydream. If they are listening they are generally some interesting thing to think about. They are not all Christian - they use other religions too.
The hymns are of value- there are some lovely ones. The old ones don't feature anymore, which is a bit of a shame, but there are some lovely modern ones.
They are of value because it is our culture. It shows what a service is about, useful to know if you never get taken to church because they will feature on the news every time there is a memorial service or similar.
The prayer is if value because it makes a summary. They are not asked to pray along. When I was at school we said the Lord's Prayer but this is not done. It is very short- a contemplation and often ( not always) it is made clear that it is not a prayer unless they wish it and say 'Amen'.

I think that diddlediddledumpling is getting a very hard time when she is an atheist, who became one through her own reasoning and is open minded enough to leave her children to do the same. I am a Christian through my own reasoning and I left my children to use their own reasoning which led them to be atheists. I can't see all the angst about having to 'unteach' your children if they think differently. Maybe they will just think differently- why does it matter?

I can hear BertrandRussell getting annoyed as I write this and saying that I am missing the point- it is about praying in school and not what your child thinks. I think they are tied together. If you assume that your child will decide for themselves ( which they will) then it is quite useful to have some experience of what they are deciding for and against.

We are a Christian country- state and church are together, the Queen being head of both. It therefore not surprising that state schools have the state religion. I think it will change - in time- but if you want to speed it up you need to actively do something.

Five years old is a time to be really impressed by the concept of God if they have never heard if it. If you want to make it less of an impression then it is a good idea to introduce it before they are 5 yrs. You can generally go into churches, cathedrals without going to a service - see the bibles, stained glass windows with bible stories etc so that they have some knowledge and some idea of what others think and what you think.

You are telling us about your experiences but they are not mine. That's the trouble with CW in schools, it is so variable. Ours is by no means the worst from what I hear on MN but even so the children are asked to put their hands together and chant after the HT. Starting with Dear God and ending with Amen. And in the middle there are spurious things like thank you for helping me learn, thank you for the teachers. That's nothing to do with some mythical being!!

And for every child who questions what a figure in authority is saying there will be the majority who will accept it as true. Not every child goes home and talks about their day so you can have the appropriate 'discussion'.

If they are not going home and talking about their day it wasn't important. I would have assumed my children didn't have collective worship unless I had known better. They would have forgotten it and looked at me in amazement if I tried to make a 'thing' of it.
People don't like 'my experiences' but they span nearly 60 yrs of collective worship as pupil ( 6 schools) and teacher - ( couldn't count them)
Supply teaching gives the broad picture that you don't get from one or two schools.

I have, in the odd occasion,asked what assembly was about if I hadn't been in. You have to rely on the small handful who actually remember!

Quiet contemplative time in the middle of a busy day is wonderful. Here's an idea- why not make it inclusive so everyone can get the benefit? Collectively?

I shall stop wasting time on here and go off for my morning run- similar to collective worship a time to think!

I don't understand why everyone can't benefit from the time BT. We are all free in our minds to use the time as we will. Anyway- off for my run before I get drawn in again!

"I don't understand why everyone can't benefit from the time BT. We are all free in our minds to use the time as we will"

Not if we are told to put our hands together, bow our heads and pray.

The utter arrogance of some Christians is just so depressing

I am also baffled as to you why you have to 'unteach it'. That is just as bad. Children need to separate fact from opinion and learn to tell the difference for themselves

But if, like OP's child, children are getting from collective worship that a Christian god is 'fact', then you do need to 'unteach' that don't you, so they understand it's just opinion, and not backed by evidence?

I don't understand why everyone can't benefit from the time BT. We are all free in our minds to use the time as we will

If it was quiet, contemplative time, sure. But that's not fulfilling either 'collective worship' or 'of a Christian nature', which both excludes and further promotes Christian privilege.

We are a Christian country- state and church are together, the Queen being head of both. It therefore not surprising that state schools have the state religion. I think it will change - in time- but if you want to speed it up you need to actively do something.

Yep. A lot of us are, because structural privilege for faiths, and in particular for one faith, is so out of whack with cultural practice and belief, let alone what is beneficial for society, that it needs campaigners.

Five years old is a time to be really impressed by the concept of God if they have never heard if it. If you want to make it less of an impression then it is a good idea to introduce it before they are 5 yrs.

You're setting up the Christian god as the default again, and presenting a binary, evenly weighted choice. Do you honestly not see the problem with that?

I've sat in on an 'open the book' reenactment. It mainly comprised of a handful of elderly people moving about draped in single bed sheets while the kids looked on in utter confusion.

Another thing I find baffling is all the Christians saying "Oh, all these prayers and reenactments and so on don't make any difference- children don't notice them or remember them- they make their own minds up" but still insist that they should continue and cling on like grim death to their privileges.....

Why are they so worried about their children coming across the idea that you don't have to be a Christian?

I think that children are well aware that you don't have to be a Christian- otherwise the churches would be full!

I hope you are aware that the majority of teachers in any school will not be Christians - including faith schools. Therefore they are not 'cramming heads'

I can't get past that people have so little faith in children and don't allow for them thinking for themselves. I would be horrified if I had to be worried about mine following the herd and accepting everything they were told. It never worried me. Neither would I have had to 'unteach' them - they would have it me short on any preaching.

Sorry 'cut me short on any preaching' - I would have got pitying looks and 'you don't need to take it all so seriously, mum'.

i'll answer the questions put to me, then i'll be off, this thread is really going nowhere.

in my view, the benefits of collective worship include the opportunity to hear stories and parables or fables with a moral and to think about the moral of the story. this could be from the Bible or from elsewhere, since the worship is only meant to be 'broadly' Christian. This is the kind if thing i recall from my own schooldays, and may well be part of what helped form my udeas of right and wrong.

in my dc's school, assemblies have been themed in the past, for example around friendship. That has lots of value in a school.

Bowing your head in quiet contemplation or being thankful is an opportunity to be alone with your thoughts on a busy day. Nobody ever forced me to pray, and since they've no idea what's going on in my head, i dont see how they could have.

its also a time when several year groups collect together, an opportunity to see what older and younger children in your school might be doing. this can help form vertical relationships, which are very valuable in schools.

i dont know anything about Open The Book, they dont operate where i live.

as an athiest, obviously i dont agree with the message that God is everywhere. But ive no problem with kids being told that, because its very easy for me to say to them, yes, some people believe that, but i don't and neither does your dad. That's life, people have different beliefs and we should respect them.

recall the reason i said you haven't taken on board the views here is because at 2am, 300 odd posts in, you were still as hysterical and angry as you seemed in your op, and that made me think your thinking hadn't moved on at all. apologies if i got that wrong. but you asked in your op for advice on how to deal with it or handle it (sorry to paraphrase) but didn't seem to listen to those who said either a)dont sweat it or b) withdraw your child, I do, its fine. You're still asking why its happening, despite knowing the answer.

i don't really think i got such a hard time here Mehita, but thanks for your support. Its very interesting that you and i seem to be of the same mind in so many ways, except for our diametrically opposed belief systems

I can't get past that people have so little faith in children and don't allow for them thinking for themselves.

I'd be fine with children thinking of themselves - that's what RE helps them to do.

Collective worship, where schools present Christianity as fact over all other religious beliefs and none, is not leaving children to make their own mind up - it is presenting one solution as primary above others.