Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

** thinking for themselves, rather.

Thankfully I have never met these children who are empty vessels who take things in without opinions of their own. I have met some 5/6 yr olds who find the concept of God quite exciting- when it is all new to them.

Time to go as banging head!
Schools do not present Christianity over other religions as fact. the majority of Heads and teachers are not Christians .

Then they're not fulfilling their statutory obligation. Which is fine, but why have it if schools aren't going to follow it?

Whether the heads/teachers are Christian or not is irrelevant. It's what the law and statutory guidance requires - and in OP's case, they are getting Christians in to come in and present it as fact - or at least as close to same that an 8 year old accepted and repeated it as fact.

I have met some 5/6 yr olds who find the concept of God quite exciting- when it is all new to them.

But why are they finding the concept of the Christian god exciting, rather than Buddha, or Hindu gods, or Allah? Is it because their school has led them down that path through collective worship or simply presenting Christianity as the 'natural' religion?

The fact that they are finding the concept of the Christian god 'quite exciting' suggests some level of indoctrination/presenting that god as a more natural choice than any other gods or none.

Maybe the answer is church schools teaching Christianity more than just a few minutes then, because none of the athiests I know at them seem to be struggling with 'needing to be untaught' the religious aspects.
As a none believer some form of worship is something I prefer personally because it gives my child the opportunity to experience taking part in something I don't do, same as taking part in music lessons or anything else we don't do at home.
If that many people object to it then what's the issue? They can all withdraw their children in September and the withdrawn group will become the larger. Doesn't even require any campaigning or much organisation. The reason that doesn't happen is because clearly the majority don't see an issue.

time for me to go too diddlediddle - I like your way of bringing up children.
I looked at my minutes old baby and I didn't know who I had. The joy of being a parent has been finding out- and loving and supporting the ones that I had- even if their views turn out to be very different from mine. I had fun, I brought them up with my ideals but it is not my job to mould them to the sort of person that I wanted. As long as they continue to be the kind, considerate, emotionally mature adults that they are they can't possibly disappoint me. I didn't have expectations.

Christians continually have children who are atheists - it is a fact.

The bottom line seems to be that many atheists can't stand the fact that their child might grow up to be a church going Christian. It happens.
My big problem with this thread is that I can't see why it matters.

However it is all dismissed because 'I am missing the point'. I am not missing the point - I am making a new one.

I would take collective worship out of schools given a vote. I wouldn't actively do anything, as I think it has its good points. There are lots more important issues to solve in schools IMO.
I am convinced that if all those who are really anti were to actively fight it then change would come sooner.

To help out with what the law says - because some people seem to be struggling with it:

^'Worship' is not defined in the legislation and in the absence of any such
definition it should be taken to have its natural and ordinary meaning. That
is, it must in some sense reflect something special or separate from
ordinary school activities and it should be concerned with reverence or
veneration paid to a divine being or power. However, worship in schools
will necessarily be of a different character from worship amongst a group
with beliefs in common. The legislation reflects this difference in referring
to 'collective worship' rather than 'corporate worship'.^

^Collective worship and assembly are distinct activities. Although they may
take place as part of the same gathering, the difference between the two
should be clear. Collective worship can, nevertheless, be related to the
day to day life, aspirations and concerns of the school.^

^Taking part' in collective worship implies more than simply passive
attendance. It follows that an act of collective worship should be capable
of eliciting a response from pupils, even though on a particular occasion
some of the pupils may not feel able actively to identify with the act of
worship.^

...

^Provided that, taken as a whole, an act of worship which is broadly
Christian reflects the traditions of Christian belief, it need not contain only
Christian material. Section 7(1) is regarded as permitting some
non-Christian elements in the collective worship without thus depriving it of
its broadly Christian character. Nor would the inclusion of elements
common to Christianity and one or more other religions deprive it of that
character. It must, however, contain some elements which relate
specifically to the traditions of Christian belief and which accord a special
status to Jesus Christ. ^

I think we all agree that schools implement this differently, and some stick closer to the guidance than others. But let's be realistic about what the state actually sets out as the standard.

The bottom line seems to be that many atheists can't stand the fact that their child might grow up to be a church going Christian. It happens. My big problem with this thread is that I can't see why it matters.

Sigh. Really? You can't see the problem with the state according a privileged position to Christianity, so that you see it as a natural choice between atheism and Christianity, rather than between atheism and faith in general?

If my children grow up to be religious - then good for them. I'd be happier about it if I thought they were making a true choice that hadn't been skewed by the privileged position accorded to one religion in our society, and that hadn't been presented to them as factual, rather than comparative, at school.

Maybe the answer is church schools teaching Christianity more than just a few minutes then, because none of the athiests I know at them seem to be struggling with 'needing to be untaught' the religious aspects.

I don't know, I consider religion to have fucked up a fair few years of my life. I got there in the end, but it was rocky, unpleasant and unnecessary - particularly considering I had atheist/agnostic parents.

Maybe you haven't actually read the various education acts , BigDorrit, or any of the various guidances on collective worship if you believe that.
Or you have a quite extreme Head.

Caveat: I have not RTFT in much detail but I do know why this happens.

The Church of England is what is known as the Established Church in this country. That means we have a national religion and this is linked with the state in legal terms (this forum is not a good place to go into the complexities).

When universal elementary education came in after the Forster Act in 1870, the Church of England effectively more or less funded a lot of elementary schools, saving the state a lot of money and hassle. The trade off has been that in every education act since then, a daily act of Christian worship has been made a legal requirement in every state school unless the school has an official opt-out (e.g. it is Jewish).

Many schools ignore this. However it is a legal requirement. The usual workaround is to make it ecumenical (inclusive) and to indicate to the children that the prayer part is optional, but the ethical bits about not stealing and not belting your neighbour in the playground need to be taken notice of. Most parents of all faiths seem fine with this.

if you are not fine with it, you have the legal right to withdraw your child from the daily act of collective worship so all you need to do is request this from the head teacher. However it will mean your child is singled out and a member of staff will have to sit with him/her elsewhere for the duration.

Personally speaking I would go along with it as the line of least resistance, but I understand some people feel more strongly about this stuff.

I would be disappointed if my children made choices based on school assemblies!

I think that is a good explanation BoffinMum- and if you don't like it you will have to actively campaign for a change in the law. Moaning on MN will get nowhere.

Jassy puts everything so much better than I.

From my point of view my 6 yr old goes to a very small school with children from various different backgrounds. I am sad that she has been taught about Christianity as the only option. It is devisive at a time when children get along regardless of their differences.

I am a staunch believer in learning about as much as you can and that includes religion. I am also staunchly against the promotion of one religion above others.

At easter time my daughter came home with a little box garden with a model cave and a cross and told me it was to remind her that Jesus died for her! wtaf!

The bottom line seems to be that many atheists can't stand the fact that their child might grow up to be a church going Christian. It happens.
My big problem with this thread is that I can't see why it matters."

You have completely made that up. Completely. Nobody has said that.

It's interesting to look at how many people actually actively want collective worship in schools. There's not much research on the subject - Bangor University is doing some work at the moment - but a 2011 ComRes poll showed that 60% of the general public think the requirement for all state-funded schools to hold a daily act of collective worship should not be enforced, versus just 33% who think that it should be. This percentage drops to 30% of those with children. So the idea that it's 'what the majority want' or 'most parents are find with it' is on quite shaky factual ground. (Do we still care about facts?)

I think that is a good explanation BoffinMum- and if you don't like it you will have to actively campaign for a change in the law. Moaning on MN will get nowhere.

You reckon? If a couple of MNetters come and help us campaign as a result of my 'moaning' (and occasional pointing out of facts), then I consider that effective, and part of active campaigning.

Why do people think they're mutually exclusive?

I just don't get why Christians feel so insecure about their faith that they feel it needs to be presented above other religions and none in schools - are they worried people won't choose the faith if left to their own devices?

From my point of view my 6 yr old goes to a very small school with children from various different backgrounds. I am sad that she has been taught about Christianity as the only option. It is devisive at a time when children get along regardless of their differences.

This! A thousand times this. In the same week as we have the Prime Minister (and many MNers) talking about extremism, failures of integration, with a particular focus on Islam and radicalisation of people born here, do people honestly not see an issue with a law that requires schools to present Christianity as the norm to children, thus treating children of different faiths as 'other' and 'not the norm'?

Really- very pleased to hear it. I will admit it was an impression formed from all these threads on MN over the years.
Ms Russell should know- she has been on them for years under several different names!

It's an interesting assumption isn't it? That if people are talking about something on Mumsnet, they aren't doing anything about it elsewhere?

I'm honestly not sure where it's come from, either. Most of the threads related to religion and state privilege for Christianity I've been involved in have quite a few people talking about campaigning organisations and their participation in same.

But thanks awfully for your approbation for my activities. It means a lot.

If they are doing something elsewhere then why didn't they tell OP? I was the one who mentioned the secular society to her. I would have thought that if you were actively engaged you would be recruiting people who feel the same- not being silent in the subject.

So pleased that you like my approbation.

At risk of irony, isn't it best to let people make their own minds up, rather than 'actively recruiting'?

I'll often mention the source of my information - I'm in the midst of hyperemesis so haven't been as assiduous as I might have been, which is my fault. I'll often refer to the Campaign for Fair Admissions, or the BHA, or research that debunks some of the myths on this thread.

But in a forum like Mumsnet, I tend to assume people are adults who have access to google, and if they wish to investigate further, they will.