Going to Church on Sundays

[EdithSimcox]

Question for Christians obviously: How important is it to you to be able to go to church on Sunday?

I have recently refound faith after an absence of 25 years. My DP is finding it impossible to accept. I've been trying to find ways of being as unobtrusive as possible about it - including going to church near the office on a weekday lunchtime so as not to disrupt our family weekends. But I do want to go to church on Sundays sometimes - I want a 'home' church, to be part of a regular congregation, to sing hymns, to feel part of a church family (DP would really shudder at that one). In the last 8 weeks I've managed to go twice. I wasn't going today anyway because I knew 2 weeks in a row would really tip her over the edge. But this morning she asked me to agree never to go on Sundays. I said it was too big an ask to try and bounce me into and she had a sort of panic attack (I don't know if that's a technical thing, but it's definitely a physical panic/pain response she has - which she is having therapy to deal with but she thinks may never go away)

I do want to put her and the DC first, and I am prepared to compromise, but I was thinking more like going once or twice a month, not never. But she says I can pray anywhere and go to church in the week, so it's not a big thing to ask at all.

As a compromise I'm think I'm going to agree not to go until September, but that won't be enough I'm sure.

What do you think?

"I really find it hard to understand why for an atheist, their partner finding faith could be a dealbreaker. Surely if someone you love deeply, changes their beliefs profoundly but was still the same loveable person you married, you would do all you could to understand why they now believed something different."

I agree. You would do what you could to understand. And I am sure that for many people it's not a deal breaker. But for many it would be- for the reasons I have explained as clearly as I possibly can several times on this thread.

Capsium, what I mean is that the 'trappings' can be an adjunct or it can be the main thing.

eg a pp equated church with a hobby. There are a lot of churchgoers who genuinely see it in that way.

fwiw I am with you that collective worship eg church can be as much a part of an individual's ongoing relationship with God just much as private times with God. I'm just trying to locate which is the priority for op re God or church (bit crude though, sorry). It could shed light on op's partner's response to op's religious practise - and could also shed light on what it is that actually matters to op.

Re op wants very much wants to go to church on Sundays but this is causing considerable angst in op's relationship. So it is a central point - in fact the question in the title.

I think a partner finding (or rediscovering) a faith is a huge thing, and it would change them greatly. That does not mean the relationship could not survive, but there would be a lot that needed working on.
If a person changes their belief system, one can believe they could also change their feelings for you.

yy it says it there in the book ^^ was in response to the Galations quote

springy I think I am guilty in equating church to a hobby on the first page, I did point out though, this was me trying to imagine the case from an unbeliever's perspective. The thinking being, if a person is not relating to or engaging with any divine being, the experience is more cultural, like, for example, an interest in the theatre. So the point was what, exactly, is the objection from an atheistic perspective - if nothing divine is going on. Time spent away from the family seemed to be the only issue. However, I was being overly simplistic, as cultural influences can be incredibly powerful too.

Absolutely cultural influences can be incredibly powerful! I wholeheartedly agree with that.

Thank you for this thread op. It is clarifying for me where I stand, what I want, what I believe, what is important to me...

I don't relate to the central british culture that goes into overdrive in the mainstream church. Hence my disenfranchisement (or feelings of). I would also notice when others are signed up to a cultural expression of belief.

But back to the op's partner (and the op) - mix together the cultural expressions of belief with the suggestion of a real and living deity and it's not surprising people can suspect a cult, or cultish practise. ime of churches they wouldn't be far from the truth I'm sorry to say (VERY sorry to say). It is not at all surprising to me that op's partner could be so deeply threatened by op's volte-face that she could have a panic attack in response; could not bear the thought of op attending any meetings around the subject. To suggest she has a mental illness or is manipulating op, not allowing him freedom of religious expression, is to ignore the intimacy of their relationship so far imo.

It is clarifying for me - even if it is not clarifying for anyone else. Apols

Manipulation is a possibility though. I don't think things are always so clear cut.

Anyone can be manipulative, whether there is mental illness present or not. There is a huge spectrum of mental illness out there, some involves panic attacks, anxiety and paranoia, some involves controlling behaviour. The Op has mentioned her wife is undergoing therapy to help her in this. Acknowledging these possibilities (mental illness / manipulation) does not negate the intimacy of their relationship.

However, whilst saying this, armchair diagnosis in order to dismiss behaviour or particular viewpoints, I feel, is very wrong. I think the value in pointing out these possibilities is to explore the right balance between not overly indulging other's fears whilst being considerate and sympathetic of their ability (alone) to overcome them.

Op,

Fear of not being loved, fear of religion bringing in alien views, fear if being disapproved of by the congregation, ultimately you, as well as dealing with whatever has happened in the past and one's intellectual position is a fearsome mix.

I hope that over the Easter break, where there is so much about rejection, hopelessness, despair and then love, coming through all, you and your wife can also relax into the love that you very clearly share, knowing that nothing will make a difference to the two of you.

Not running away... At work. I'll respond later.

Yes, I agree with that too. Of course manipulation could be present - and manipulation is endemic in all guises, everywhere (not least in intimate relations). However, the main thrust of the responses to op's partner's extreme response is to castigate her for not allowing op free religious expression, express dismay she could be that bothered, accuse her of manipulation etc. I just wanted to present another viewpoint.

op it is impossible to suggest a strategy because I/we don't know her or you. I don't know the relationship or what goes down between you. Just that this clearly doesn't and that's you're stuck as a couple on it. We could to try to work through it with you, to support you through it, to see what could be steps forward at any given time. In that sense we'd have to get down to the minutiae. I'm not sure how that could work as this board is regularly hijacked by detractors and is not the safest place most of the time ime.

I wish someone would post who has been through this. Perhaps you could google to see what comes up?

Perhaps clarify to yourself , privately, exactly what this is to you. Is it a club, an interest? Are you madly in love [with God]? etc. Get it clear with yourself first.

I think that is a good point springy. It's not a club/hobby, clearly. I wouldn't say I'm madly in love either. But I probably am guilty of sometimes underplaying the importance of it, in an attempt to make it seem less threatening. At the moment the topic is banned (by agreement) but when we can broach it again, I need to be consistent and clear about what is and isn't important to me, and why.

Hi caps I'm ok, thanks - it wasn't me who resurrected the thread but since it was I thought I may as well as engage!

vdb thanks for your support too.

orlanda yes it is sometimes fearsome indeed. But we will get there.

Btw, for those of you who seem confused about our genders... DP is a woman, I am a woman, we are a lesbian couple.

Thanks to you all. It is still a roller coaster (not a fun one) but I'm not getting off.

Good for you for hanging in there, Edith.

I still think about what you are coming up against in terms of being a very Christian type of battle. It must seem like you are fighting incorrect perceptions of what a 'Christian' is or believes all the time', when how you actually behave or believe bears no relation to these perceptions. Rather like Jesus confronting people with what God actually is like as opposed to what they thought He was like.

I think it is good that you are putting the talking about it off for a while. Your DP can then focus on how you actually are, rather than what she regards as being a Christian is like.

Edith, I'd assumed that and know that if I were your DP, aware of how uninclusive and condemnatory the church, any church, or congregation can be, I'd know I would feel incredibly insecure, almost no matter what you might say. Will they get to her , would be my feeling. I think if I were assured they wouldn't, I'd feel better.

I don't know what your church is like, but two friends got their vicar to have a service if blessing after their civil ceremony ( agreed with bishop in advance) and cake for the congregation . Really lovely affirmation. It obv helped that they are both Christian, , and it might send your DP into understandable fits. But is there some way that you and she could meet the clergy, who could say they welcome anyone who loves you, and would never ever try to separate you? I know our clergy would be prepared to meet on neutral ground ( usually a pub) and say that.

The vicar has offered actually to meet her for that reason. DP is not interested. I have the text of a sermon she gave about LGBT inclusivity which was very good. I told DP about it at the time. So she does know that this particular church community is not like that. Tbh, her issues with it are not really about the gay thing, they are historical and intellectual.

I do think that knowing you are a lesbian couple adds an extra dimension to the conversation. The Christian church has such a hideous record on gay rights (yes, I know there are plenty of individuals who don't). I think if I was your partner I would find it very hard to understand how you could want to be part of an insititution that has treated people like you so very badly. I am afraid I now have more sympathy for your partner than I had before.......

Didn't you know that before Bert? Sorry! I thought it was obvious (or explicit, I'm not sure which..)

No, I didn't. I try not to make assumptions about people, and you weren't explicit.

I still think she is wrong to ban you from doing something. But I think that if I were here, it would be even more of a deal breaker than it would be if you were straight. Simply because so many people who call themselves Christians would want to deny your right to be who you are.

No it wasn't obvious and no you weren't explicit. Cards/close/chest come to mind, Or perhaps I spend too much time in relationships, where all details are demanded as though before a court and 'drip-feeding' is severely reprimanded.

Granted, you have to keep quiet about your 'guilty secret' around your partner because the subject is incendiary. But I also wonder if the cards/close/chest thing is a theme in your life in general. I asked earlier if you had been explicit with your partner or if you had just said 'uh i think i'll go to church', leaving her reeling, outraged, confused, threatened.

Just a thought. I've presented extremes precisely because you haven't filled in the blanks so it's hard to gauge what's going on here really.

In fact, I feel quite- not sure of the right word, but "cheated" springs to mind- by this thread.

Really Bertrand
How very invested of you.
I've just retread the thread because when it popped up in active I thought, 'I wonder if that's the lesbian poster who was having to go to church at lunchtime with the partner who had the panic attacks'?
Maybe I'd just jumped to the wrong conclusion.

sneer sneer apocalypse

Oh Bert that's hilarious. I wasn't exactly concealing it.
Edith Simcox

Yeah, I'm pretty pissed off that such a core detail (in the context of the church ffs!) has been left out until page 8. Then 'What? Didn't I say?' Come off it op.