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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Going to Church on Sundays

225 replies

EdithSimcox · 12/07/2015 11:01

Question for Christians obviously: How important is it to you to be able to go to church on Sunday?

I have recently refound faith after an absence of 25 years. My DP is finding it impossible to accept. I've been trying to find ways of being as unobtrusive as possible about it - including going to church near the office on a weekday lunchtime so as not to disrupt our family weekends. But I do want to go to church on Sundays sometimes - I want a 'home' church, to be part of a regular congregation, to sing hymns, to feel part of a church family (DP would really shudder at that one). In the last 8 weeks I've managed to go twice. I wasn't going today anyway because I knew 2 weeks in a row would really tip her over the edge. But this morning she asked me to agree never to go on Sundays. I said it was too big an ask to try and bounce me into and she had a sort of panic attack (I don't know if that's a technical thing, but it's definitely a physical panic/pain response she has - which she is having therapy to deal with but she thinks may never go away)

I do want to put her and the DC first, and I am prepared to compromise, but I was thinking more like going once or twice a month, not never. But she says I can pray anywhere and go to church in the week, so it's not a big thing to ask at all.

As a compromise I'm think I'm going to agree not to go until September, but that won't be enough I'm sure.

What do you think?

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 06/02/2016 14:18

We need an agreed solution, not an imposed one.
That would be brilliant Edith, but (and I may have read this wrong), you said that you had to give up going to church in November. Was this an agreed solution, because it sounds imposed to me.

You mention that being here is part of your current compromise, did your wife try to stop you from posting here?

EdithSimcox · 06/02/2016 15:57

Dione that was carelessly worded I think. DP hasn't actually stopped me going. It was a kind of self-inflicted exile in November to try and ward off the kinds of consequences that Bert is alluding to I think. Things have moved on and the current (new) arrangement is agreed - slightly unhappily from both ends, but it is middle ground and compromise which is the best we can hope for, for now. And re posting here, again no, not exactly; I don't think I can really explain here, but thank you for your concern.

PA sorry I somehow missed your post when I was reading through yesterday. Thank you for thinking of me. I don't think there are home groups but I will ask - it's a good idea.

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BertrandRussell · 07/02/2016 09:56

I feel very uneasy indeed about this thread. Edith- please stay on here. It sounds to me very much as if you are being dominated in a rather unpleasant way. Stay here so you can keep talking about it.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 07/02/2016 15:16

Being able to worship freely is a fundamental human right and in a just world Edith would be at liberty to exercise this right.

All I would say in defence of Edith’s DP is that her behaviour is coming from a place of weakness and desperation not strength. Whether or not you can imagine what it’s like to be in her situation, she is surely deserving of compassion – as of course is Edith, who is also suffering, and whose love and concern for her partner shine through.

My take on it all is that when people are in a close relationship, there can be a blurring of the distinction between self and non-self, and it can feel as if your identity is in some way fractured if the actions and attitudes of your other half are alien to you.

This is especially true for ‘coupley’ couples - couples that are accustomed to thinking in a similar way and who generally live in each other’s pockets.

‘Chalk and cheese’ couples with greater individual autonomy within the relationship are less likely to experience a unilateral change in religious views as a destabilising seismic event.

I’m guessing that Edith and her DP may well be – or have been - a ‘coupley’ couple. So this will have hit them particularly hard.

I’m also guessing that Edith’s DP is more of a Nietzschean atheist than a Dawkinsesque atheist.

(Dawkins sneers at religion in a controlled way. He doesn’t even break sweat in his attack since his enemy is not perceived as a threat at a visceral level. In contrast, Nietzsche did not underestimate religion. He had felt the power of the enemy from within and after making good his escape, fought against that enemy with every fibre of his being.)

For these reasons, and because I have gone through something a bit similar with a boyfriend who became a born-again Christian, the intensity of response from Edith’s DP does not surprise me at all.

But what’s to be done to improve the situation?

Strangely, perhaps, I think it could be helpful for Edith’s DP to strengthen ties with fellow atheists, so that she can feel validated in her sense of herself and her values. At the moment she probably feels like the rug has been pulled from beneath her feet. Taking a step back to work on her own independent identity might just allow her to become secure enough to establish a new modus vivendi with Edith.

There may even come a time when some aspects of the Christian experience can be shared without Edith’s DP feeling her own sense of reality is being undermined.

For example, Jesus can be appreciated, and even cherished, outside of the package deal of Christianity. There is nothing to stop Edith and her DP sharing Jesus the desert preacher. As an atheist, I can recommend the Jefferson Bible as a way of having Jesus and his precepts in your life without the supernatural elements of Christianity.

And then there is that sensation of transcendence in response to the sheer beauty of the world. That sensation is a part of common human experience, whether or not you identify it as a sign of God's presence.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/02/2016 17:06

Edith, it all sounds very difficult.Sad I think that all you can do is what you are doing already. Keep talking and hopefully this, along with time will be enough for your wife to understand that you are still the woman she loves.

I wish you strength, patience and understanding.Thanks

expatinscotland · 07/02/2016 17:36

Sounds really difficult, Edith.

Madhairday · 08/02/2016 15:44

Edith Flowers

Just to say I think about you a lot, and I'm sorry things are in a similar place. You're in my prayers, too.

I'm glad to see you here. Please do keep posting. The midweek church thing sounds like it could be a good idea, but sad for you when you enjoy the Sunday church you found and got on with the vicar etc.

It must be so hard for you. You are a brave and caring person, following this new call on you while doing all you can to take care of DP and minimise her hurt. Thing is, she needs to do some giving to you as well, and find compromise somehow.

With my love and thoughts.

EdithSimcox · 10/02/2016 22:10

outwith you are right on all counts I think. (Actually ime you nearly always are!) except for the bit about DP one day appreciating Jesus the desert preacher... Ain't never gonna happen!

Thanks mhd dione and expat. Ash Wednesday is on a weekday at least Grin

OP posts:
springydaffs · 21/03/2016 21:21

Great post, outwith.

I also perfectly understand OP's partner's horror at his new found faith; that it entirely changes the dynamics of their relationship. I am a christian/believer and I understand it isn't about freedom to make choices - that's not what it's about. It's about a fundamental [I was going to say sacred but perhaps not] change in belief. Hugely challenging I would've thought.

I also don't think she is being controlling by insisting op doesn't go to church - or that she doesn't know , doesn't see the evidence, that op is going to church. She is HORRIFIED by this, deeply threatened on a core level. I can't think of a parallel, sorry, but i can clearly see why she can't cope with the evidence of the fundamental change in OP's world view.

As for original q OP: no, sunday church isn't important to me. I've never gelled with the church anyway so the whole community scene horrifies is not for me. I am currently going to a small church - about 8-10 of us - and that does it for me - the shorter the better because I don't go in for the hoopla. So perhaps this has a few layers (at least) re your belief in a deity; your embracing a church culture. I'd struggle with the second and leap with joy at the first. But I'm not her. I can quite see this has rocked her world. I feel for her - and you both of course.

Church doesn't have to be on sundays. church is a group of people who believe and share that belief in ways that do it for that group. It could be a party where people enjoy being together, enjoying enjoying themselves. Religious observance is probably a different thing usually happens on sundays in a group setting. Housegroups/cell groups (lots of different names - I went to one church which called weekly get-togethers 'cell groups' but we had a big influx of ex-prisoners and felt it appropriate to change the name) happen all week at different times of the day. The important thing is to find a group of people you gel with and can worship with (in whatever way); doesn't matter on what day.

Sorry long new laptop, can crack through

springydaffs · 21/03/2016 21:24

Sorry also for gender assumptions.

EdithSimcox · 22/03/2016 22:13

Ah springy so you don't think her not wanting me to go on Sundays is wrong, but then you hate church anyway. I love it, the liturgy, the sacrament, the music, the singing, the community, the whole shebang. So it does matter to me. True, I could find one that meets on a weekday, but it wouldn't be local. In fact I have, and it's ok, but it's not the same.

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springydaffs · 22/03/2016 23:09

I didn't say I hate church, I said I hate THE church - the weird [british] christian culture that I find repugnant.

So it is not so much the God thing for you then but the 'christian' package that does it for you op? How are you on the God thing? If you don't mind me asking.

I also don't think her not wanting you to go to church on sundays is right or wrong; it just is how she feels. btw if you are in a ss relationship then I imagine this could have a lot to do with her antipathy toward the church.

EdithSimcox · 22/03/2016 23:49

Ok, sorry I misunderstood. I'm not sure what you mean by how am I on the God thing? But taking it as a literal question: I (re-)found my faith in God this time last year. That's what led me back to church. And I found it to be a kind of virtuous circle (is that the right term? Opposite of vicious circle...) the more my faith grew the more I wanted to go to church, and the more I go to church, the more my faith grows. And yes, it's a Christian thing too, as in social justice, helping those who are vulnerable and disadvantaged etc. Is that what you meant?

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EdithSimcox · 23/03/2016 00:13

And, in case I haven't said it before in this thread, I do realise that the loving and Christian thing to do is to put her needs first, which I am trying to do; but I am also trying to respond to God's call in the way that feels right to me; it is finding ways to tread that narrow path that I sometimes struggle with.

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springydaffs · 23/03/2016 07:42

Do you read the bible privately? Pray privately? Do you enjoy both - or is it better for you in a church setting? Sorry for intrusive q's.

ime the 'social justice' etc is a result of my relationship with God. I don't feel compelled to be kind to the unfortunate out of duty - it is a consequence of my relationship with God. I don't feel compelled to do anything tbh. I don't think that's how it works.

It occurs to me that twice a month is a LOT - yet you refer to it as though you are seriously cutting back to respect your partner's feelings. I get it you're mad for it all at the mo, and cutting back to twice a month is a significant sacrifice. Can you see she could be horrified at this, at your sudden infatuation with something other than her - like you're having an affair. That's aside from her [potential - I don't know] horror that you believe in a deity and all that that entails.

springydaffs · 23/03/2016 07:49

Sorry - I meant: how are you with God. Is it God who has got you agog or is it the package (the rituals etc).

EdithSimcox · 23/03/2016 08:27

Yes I do those things (read the Bible, pray).

I have always done of a lot of voluntary work, including through the decades when I had no (conscious) relationship with God. I think maybe becoming a Christian has given me a boot up the bum to do more, but I wouldn't say to feel compelled to do it out of duty.

You are right that it's a very big deal for her, I do get that. I should stop defending myself, but carrying on regardless everyone in this family has things they do every week, so once every 2 or 3 weeks for an hour would not be frequent for us; I'm not cutting back - I've only been a handful of times at all so far; and it's been (very nearly) a year now.

OP posts:
EdithSimcox · 23/03/2016 08:30

I'm not agog! But the way I see it is that God got me started, and (some of) the rituals are also meaningful (to me).

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CocktailQueen · 23/03/2016 08:37

I don't get why your dp feels 'fear and hatred' of religion. Why is she 'horrified and disgusted' by your faith?

What kind of church do you go to? Surely she can think of it just a like a club or hobby, which she doesn't share your interest in? And surely there are no downsides for her? You are happier and more fulfilled; presumably you are a nicer person (living as Jesus wants us all to live)?

I don't see why she's taking it so badly. You're not being fundamentalist or fanatical about it, are you? People are expected to grow and change over their lifetime, not remain the same person they were at 20.

springydaffs · 23/03/2016 08:46

Surely she can think of it just a like a club or hobby

Come off it Queen. Disingenuous much Grin

But perhaps that's how you see it: a hobby, a club. If op says he has a vital relationship with the creator of the universe that's quite a big deal for anyone who doesn't have that to get their head around.

How are you not agog op? Why so touchy

EdithSimcox · 23/03/2016 08:49

Thanks cocktail. It's just the regular C of E church, and no I'm not fundamentalist; I'm at the progressive / liberal end. But as I think I've said it's a bit more complicated than I can fully explain.

Things have moved on since this thread started, and the bit about accepting change (as a concept, rather than this specific change) is one where we have made progress, thankfully.

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EdithSimcox · 23/03/2016 08:52

Touchy? Probably. Because I have been attacked a lot for this, so I feel defensive. And 'agog' sounds pejorative, to me.

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springydaffs · 23/03/2016 08:53

I'm not attacking you! Why would I - I'm where you are. And agog is precisely how I'd describe my own response to God; not pejorative at all.

EdithSimcox · 23/03/2016 08:56

I didn't mean you were. Just agreeing that I am touchy.

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springydaffs · 23/03/2016 08:58

Look, you can't switch between 'it's just something I like to do, a keen interest' to 'I'm in LOVE with God! I can't get enough of God!' That's not fair on her.

Be fair and honest. You're mad for God at the mo. It's that, and all that entails, that is a monumental challenge for her. Understandably!