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Original poster

Introducing "God" to 4 yr old (atheist family)

162 replies

EssenceOfGelfling · 30/05/2014 20:37

Not sure if I'm just being a bit PFB about this, so please someone slap me about a bit if I am!

DH and I are atheist. Our children are free to make up their own minds about what they want to believe. I believe I will have as much influence over their beliefs as my parents have over my beliefs - i.e. none!

DS starts school in september. So far he has no experience of any religion whatsoever, never been in a church, never prayed, never had a discussion about the idea of 'God'. Not deliberately, its just not a part of our lives or our extended family.

Its not a faith school, but there will be collective worship. I don't want his first experience of religion to be in an assembly where he hasn't got a clue why people are closing their eyes and making shapes with their hands and saying 'amen'. I'd like to explain what it all means, and that its his choice what he wants to believe, but not sure where to start (without getting into the philosophical complexities of it), or even if its necessary, am I overthinking this?! (Background: he struggles with new routines and transitions... I want him to settle in easily and want to prepare him as much as is sensible to do so).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this.

OP posts:
beatingwings · 01/06/2014 15:56

I don't know about the PFB thing- for me it was my second child that I became more concerned about regarding religious exposure.

One of my DDs teachers loved telling bible stories, my 6 year old accepted them as history lessons. It took me 3 years to make my DD realise that the Noah's Ark story was fiction.

That teacher also had a "Table of Creation" a nature table, displaying God's works.

LumionaMoonsplash · 07/06/2014 12:09

As an atheist, I'm finding it really difficult to deal with what DD is taught at school. She nearly cried at me because I'm not a Christian. My fault for putting her into a CofE school but its the local primary.

LumionaMoonsplash · 07/06/2014 12:14

Its frustrating that they're indoctrinated at this age and are taught that this is fact along with other lessons.
Having said that, DH & I both went to a CofE school and we're atheists.

CorusKate · 07/06/2014 14:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

somedizzywhore1804 · 07/06/2014 14:35

I come from an atheist family and my first experience of religion and praying definitely came from school aged 4. I knew the story of Jesus being born from Christmas (this was loosely explained to me probably a year prior to starting school) but had never been to church or taken part in any religious services.

I don't recall ever having it explained. It didn't especially confuse me. I wouldn't worry and just go with the flow and be lead by your DSs questions.

cutefluffybunnes · 07/06/2014 14:40

We just went with the good old 'there is no god but lots of people believe there is and you should be respectful about it' line. This comes in handy as it works for ancient Egyptians and modern Christianity and everything before and between. So they learn Greek myths, and we explain about the gods they believed in. No different to school assembly, it's just another god some people believe in.

Snowfedup · 07/06/2014 19:58

Our ds often comes home talking about bible stories, I tend to act very interested and quizzical, let him tell me his version (often slightly wrong and sometimes very funny!) then I ask him what he thinks eg Jonah and the whale - we talked about whales, looked at books about how mad what they eat and then discussed whether he thought a whale could really swallow a man? I am hoping by helping him come to these descisions himself he will learn to think rationally - he is 6 by the way !

Snowfedup · 07/06/2014 19:59

Mad = and :)

PigletJohn · 07/06/2014 20:29

explain.

jessplussomeonenew · 23/06/2014 23:16

Dale McGowan has some great books/blog posts on how to approach religion when bringing up children - some fantastic (often very funny!) stories of his own children's engagement with these issues. Google "parenting beyond belief" if you're interested.

AstonishingMouse · 23/06/2014 23:32

No collective worship at the school my children go to. I don't think they have ever seen prayer at school.
They have lessons about various religions. We are aetheists and my children regard the lessons about Christianity, Islam,
Judaism all very much as things other people believe in as opposed to anything they believe in. They could understand this even at 4.
This is a very multicultural school and I would assume the way religion is dealt with is influenced by this

So I would check how the school interprets collective worship before you worry about it

ShouldHaveMarriedTimDowling · 24/06/2014 00:04

I have also left it. Waited for the question. Rode through brief phase of dc believing in god, approx age 5 when the meet other children who tell them so, by saying "ok" "and you mum?" "No" "why not?" "It is just stories, like the greek myths, the nordic ones, the fairies, etc. You believe in what suits you but try to get to know more than one".

I remember dd1 being very upset at me not believing because newborn christian friend told her thise who don't believe burn in hell. Was not happy and a bit PFB tbh.

Now I let them be. I know from being raised catholic in a catholic country that at any point you can free yourself. It does not worry me. Plus luckily now there are so many influences that it is easy to say " they believe in this and they in that and I in this" without pointing the finger and judging.

Misfitless · 28/06/2014 10:23

Some good points on here.

Just want to make the point that all those parents who compare Christianity to fairies/Santa/mythical creatures are doing exactly what they accuse school/religious of doing, but in reverse.

They are not actually allowing their DCs the freedom to find out and decide for themselves at all...their DCs will grow up with the notion that none of it is real, which will be embedded in their psyche long before we would know, imo.

My DCs attend a C of E school, but attend mass and are being brought up Catholic. If, when they are older, and fully able to understand and rationalise and question everything in detail, they decide it's not for them, so be it. (I will be sad about it but will accept it of course.)

I agree with the pp who said that it's impossible to approach this from anything other than a position of bias, myself included.

deepbluetr · 28/06/2014 16:38

misfitless - I disagree completely.

Having no faith is a default position. Faith is a human invention.
Babies are not born with faith it a human construct placed upon them.
Children in their natural state are no more likely to believe in a god or gods as they are in flying hedgehogs.

It is only possible to indoctrinate a faith. You can't indoctrinate the lack of faith. Children are born faithless.

PigletJohn · 28/06/2014 17:29

"Just want to make the point that all those parents who compare Christianity to fairies/Santa/mythical creatures are doing exactly what they accuse school/religious of doing, but in reverse."

rubbish

religious myths and folk-tales are just stories that someone, somewhere made up once.

niminypiminy · 28/06/2014 17:37

'Some people believe that religious myths and folk-tales are just stories that someone, somewhere made up once.' Live by your own rules please.

KnittingRocks · 28/06/2014 17:38

But misfitless, why is it ok for you to bring them up with faith and for me to teach them it's all fantasy? I've never understood this argument at all!

My 6 yr old DS currently believes in god, but he also believes in tooth fairies - I pray he'll grow out of believing in both Wink.

KnittingRocks · 28/06/2014 17:40

Niminy, I do believe it's all made up - I don't need to preface that sentence with some people believe! Only use that preface when talking to my kids!

niminypiminy · 28/06/2014 18:02

KnittingRocks, you see, when you say 'some people believe that...' what you are telling them is 'I do not believe this'. Children will understand that 'some people' means 'some other people who are not us'. You are throwing the weight of your authority as a parent behind a particular position. It is not a neutral phrase. Indeed, it is just as much a way of indoctrinating, if you must use the word, your children as telling them that God loves them.

Atheists so often claim that they have no beliefs, and that what they say is simply neutral fact, when nothing could be further from the truth. As you say 'I believe it's all made up' that's a belief. PigletJohn believes that 'religious myths are made up' that's a belief.

PigletJohn · 28/06/2014 18:05

some people believe that the tooth fairy is made up

Is that really necessary? Have you ever said that to an adult?

niminypiminy · 28/06/2014 18:08

why are you talking about the tooth fairy? Confused

specialsubject · 28/06/2014 18:08

anything for which there is no scientific proof is a matter of belief.

But it is far better to bring children up in an atmosphere of 'some people believe...we don't but you can make your mind up later' than the 'this is what we do, you do it too or we'll subject you to a load of emotional blackmail' which is the experience of all too many brought up by believers.

specialsubject · 28/06/2014 18:09

ps please demonstrate to me (citing evidence) the difference in validity between the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster and any deity.

PigletJohn · 28/06/2014 18:15

niminypiminy

I am talking about religious myths and folk tales.

The story about the minotaur, Leda and the swan, the Easter bunny, the talking snake and the magic rib-woman, the golden fleece, the man with the big hammer who hurls thunderbolts.

they are all just made-up stories. You wanted me to say "some people believe they are all made-up stories." I don't consider that necessary. Do you seriously expect people to say it?

niminypiminy · 28/06/2014 18:38

Science never proves anything.

We all bring our children up to do what we do from table manners and shutting/leaving open the toilet door to going to festivals or football matches. We all want our children to share the values that we hold dear, from honesty and unselfishness to our deeply held political opinions. I certainly do tell my children that 'some people vote Tory' but I am honest enough to say that I think they are wrong, and that I vote Labour and always have, and hold to those values, and hope my children will share them. If they don't, that will be up to them, and it will be fine if they turn out to be Tories they'll still be my children. But I'm not going to not pass on any values because I want them to make up their own minds. That would be wrong. They are free to reject the values I have taught them. But I am not free to teach them no values at all. The same goes for my faith. I tell them what I believe to be true, and I hope they will live by that truth. Of course, they may well reject it, as they are free to do. I cannot tell them that none of it is true, just 'what some people believe' because that would be lying to them and that would be wrong.

I can't talk about any deity, since I believe there is one God, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. God is not something that is in the cosmos whose existence might be evidenced in the same way as any other entity within the cosmos: he is the ground of all being, philosophically speaking, the first cause, the reason anything exists at all. It would be truer to say that the entire cosmos is within God (it is part of him, but he is more than it). You can't use the tools that you would use to demonstrate the existence of an entity within the cosmos for God, because they can only demonstrate the existence of entities within the cosmos -- how might we see, for example, outside the cosmos? When you compare God to the flying spaghetti monster, you are conceiving of God as an entity that might be detected (or not) within the cosmos. But that is a category error.