Catholic Baptism problems

[smartypants1000]

Basically, we have our daughters' Baptism booked for late May, outside of our Parish (where Godparents live and where we are originally from). For various reasons (serious bereavements for two of the Godparents, the girls are aged 4 and 2 - it has always been the intention to have them Baptised. It seemed pretty straightforward but we've now been told that we need the permission of our Parish Priest. This shouldn't have been a problem, except that he won't give his permission.

We moved into the Parish less than 3 months ago, and he requires that we be registered members of the Parish for 3 months before we can apply for Baptism. Then, he requires us to attend a preparation course here, and won't accept us attending preparation in the Parish where we will be having our dd's Baptised. he also requires baptism certificates for all Godparents - they don't live locally, and probably don't know where their certificates are. But the main problem is the 3 month rule. I have attended Mass with the children every Sunday since we moved here in Feb. But he requires both of us to attend for 3 months before he will allow us to attend the preparation course, and since that only runs at certain times, will not allow us to have the Baptism as planned - it has been a military operation getting a date when everyone can make it, and after so many problems I don't want to delay, as it is very important to me that the girls are Baptised :-(. Dh is Catholic, but he isn't practising. he is happy for the dc to be raised Catholic. I joined the church as an adult (prior to meeting dh) and it is so important to me to raise the children with faith.

I'm feeling very unwelcome in the Church at the moment, very upset about this, feeling that my children are not considered good enough. Can the Parish really deny us permission? Can they really just impose these arbitary rules? When ds was Baptised, it was very friendly, welcoming and straightforward. Is there anything I can do, or do I have to accept that the Baptism will not happen?

Why, if it was booked and planned before you moved, didn't you simply do it at your original parish? How long did it take to "plan", exactly?
And if you're pregnant again, why can't you simply wait and get all three children baptised together? You've waited this long...

I'm sorry, but it does sound like the party element of it is the most important aspect to you. It's a sacrament. It's not supposed to be about vast expense and people flying in etc. If the godparents can't be there, proxies can stand in for them. The godparents will still be the godparents. It's a sacrament. Not an excuse for a party.

It seems unfair to judge the OP's motives in the basis that she wants grandparents and godparents to be present for the occasion. This doesn't detract from the solemnity and sacramental nature of the event but rather demonstrates its importance to the family.

There may be reasons the OP doesn't want proxies. My DH had a brother whose Godparents couldn't attend in person and he tragically died very soon after baptism. They now will change Godparents rather than have a proxy.

Many people plan well in advance for a baptism without having a party. For others baptism is also an opportunity for extended family to meet the baby which is a sort of party but not a massive booze soaked knees up.

Fact is, whatever the reason, the baptism has been planned and prepared elsewhere and the new priest is just being obstructive really. He isn't required to actually do anything. Ironically if the OP hadn't started going to church in the new parish this wouldn't be an issue!

I am so confused by this entire thing

If you've done this all via email, why not make an appointment with the priest and sit down and explain all this to him?

Really I think you'd be better waiting for the baby and baptising all of your DC together? That gives you plenty of time and then all 3 are together, that would be lovely.

My brother is my DD's godfather. It did look like he wouldn't be able to attend right up until the day of the baptism, and although we would have gone ahead with a proxy, both he and I would have been very upset for him not to be there. I am Catholic, DH is not. We have had no problems with this with any sacrament we have asked the Church for!

I find this hoop-jumping for a child to receive the sacrament of baptism very sad, and I agree with the poster who said that this is an excellent argument for the secularisation of schools.

I was born into a big Irish Catholic family, did the usual baptism, communion, conformation etc. Didn't so much go to mass regularly as I grew up, but I had a faith, and it was important to me.

When I was pregnant I knew I wanted my children to be of the faith, and so I started to go to mass again with my then DH, who was also Catholic.

My boys were born twelve weeks early in a hospital 120 miles away from where I lived. The midwife that assisted my birth happened to be a nun, and knowing that one of my babies was likely to die soon after he was born, asked if I wanted a priest to baptise both of them shortly after they were born. Of course we said yes, and my eldest was baptised shortly before he did. That was so important to me. My other baby was also baptised. He's just turned nine and should have been making his First Communion round about now.

In the years after my sons were born I struggled reconiciling myself with a good God, a God who could let my baby die. I stopped going to Mass, though my husband still went, taking our little boy with him.

I then fell pregnant with our daughter, and after she was born it was natural for my husband to want her to be baptised. I was fine with that, but after speaking with the priest he insisted that he would only baptise her if I started going back to Mass as he felt that I should be leading by example. After much debate, I went back, and he insisted that I go on a baptism course. Which I did. After that he requested a meeting with me and he stated to me that he felt I hadn't forgiven God for my son dying, and to be satisfied I was at one with the Lord he wanted me to say that I accepted that it was Gods good will that my son died.

I couldn't do it. So he refused to baptise my daughter.

I haven't set foot in a church since, apart from my mothers funeral.

Sorry OP, I know this is completely irrelevant to your thread, but just wanted you to know that apparently it's not a job requirement of being a priest to actually be human with feelings.

deemented I am so very sorry to hear of your situation, of the sad death of your son and of your priest's unbelievable arrogance to begin to imagine what is God's will for your life and what you should believe! I personally do feel you may have some peace if you forgive God but that is by the by, that is for you, not for God and not for this priest! I don;t think every single thing that happens is God's will, if he believes that then how does he account for sin???

I'm not Roman Catholic so had better butt out but I am a Christian and I could not read and run.

OP I hope you get somewhere with this dilemma.

deemented I am sorry for what you have gone through. I feel that the priest in question was very judgemental.

However such dickheads exist in the church of england as well. I went to a baptism class at my old church where a woman could not forgive a man who sexually abused her as a child. The church of england priest refused to baptise her child. (This is one reason I left that particular church)

I think that some priests live in an ivory tower.

ReallyTired both these examples (yours and deemented are really shocking! They seem to show that some people have forgotten that it is Jesus at the centre of the church and not some sort of check box exercise!

Yes capsium I agree, Couldn't see John the Baptist making all this palaver...!

I also feel sad to hear of any churches RC or Anglican that make people jump through hoops.

Smartypants please do let us know how you get on.

Deemented - that is so very sad in so many ways. That priest was quite wrong to deny your dd baptism.

I now see why DH was so reluctant to get our dc baptised. Initially he was embarrassed to approach to priest as, ds was born out of wedlock. By the time I got around to sorting it out, I couldn't see why dh felt that way as the priest was so lovely. This thread is showing me exactly why DH was reluctant to approach the priest, despite pressure from FIL.

There's so much variation on this thread, it really does depend on the attitude of the individual priest.
Is there another, nearby parish OP?

In the Catholic church is it all down to the decision of the priest or is there a church council or similar who decide parish protocol?

OP I am in the same diocese and my parish couldn't be more different. I feel for you. My PP is very welcoming despite being very traditional. I have had 2 of my 3 children baptised at my home parish and it felt as if we were welcomed into the community rather than being forced to prove we were good enough to join. With both baptisms the godparents lived some distance from us and were not expected to attend any preparation courses - I don't think I even had to provide proof that they were baptised.

I hope you manage to sort it out - I second contacting another priest or the Bishop to try to sort it out.

hercShipwright, I've said before, we are not having a party. It is just Parents, Godparents and Grandparents, and just a service, no party.

Floggingmolly, it's actually taken years to enable everyone to be there. Feel free to disagree with that, but I didn't want proxies (I wasn't even really aware that was an option, but wouldn't have wanted it anyway), I wanted the Godparents, and Grandparents (my DH's father is one of the Godparents and the baptism is very important to him) to be there for the Sacrament. It's hard to go into detail without putting other people's private lives out there on the internet - but one Godparent had a terminally ill husband and was unable to travel to the baptism, then he very sadly died, meaning that a few months' wait was more appropriate - by which time I was pregnant again and we had decided to have the two baptised together. DD2 was a baby when her Godfather to be died suddenly and tragically. To ask his wife to attend at this point would have been unthinkable, and it would have been too difficult for all of us to go ahead right away. This has been the first opportunity where Godparents are all able to be there. I don't really care whether you approve of that TBH.

deemented, I'm so sorry, both about your little baby son, and about your experience with that Priest. That is shocking and wrong on so many levels.

reallytired, that is shocking too. I actually once heard of an evangelical Pastor who told a grieving mother that her son died because she didn't have enough faith that he could be healed. Tragic, awful examples - no wonder dh doesn't want to go to church in some ways.

demented so sorry for your loss, the loss of a child is such a tragedy and I am sorry the church failed to show compassion.

Your story too really tired. All of this judging seems so far away from Christian messages of love. This thread has made me really sad and I feel compelled to keep returning to reinforce that many churches and priests do show love and compassion as many others on here have also experienced.

Yes Smartypants I am in an evangelical church and although the people there are generally lovely, well in all places there are some people who do hold some very odd beliefs. If they just hold then that is fair enough but they feel the need to share them!

Whatever your reasons for wanting your children baptised at this place and at this time this is your decision and your choice. I would imagine if the service for baptism of infants is the same in the Roman Catholic Church as it is for the C of E you will need to make promises on behalf of your children. The key words there being you and your and it is your responsibility to sort out your motivation for doing so.

Me and my dh decided to have our daughter dedicated (although at different times we did both feel baptism may be right), at the time our church offered this and infant and adult baptism. Our current church only baptises believers, not infants. I actually feel a bit jealous of other churches who do baptise infants as this is a great way to get to know people in the community who have young families and have an interest in God.

I just feel very strongly that when parents do this on behalf of their child the church should be welcoming, of course you may need some help or instruction but not obstruction! The church should be welcoming you with open arms....

New International Version Luke 18:16
But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

....Bless you....

gingerdodger totally agree, have met some amazing Christians of all denominations, they walk the streets as Street Pastors, run soup kitchens, raise money for charity, give time and energy. Both lay and clergy. It is maybe because it is quite rare to find some so obstructive that this is so shocking and I do hope it does not put anyone off God.

Hang on, didn't you do the prep course for your ds? Why do you need to do it again?

The priest is being a dick. Sorry I know I should show more respect but he is.

I was baptised RC and I don't have a certificate. I think there was a time they did not issue them, but there was a record in the register.

The RC church recognises CoE baptism and Methodist.

Personally I would write to the Bishop, say you came to the RC church as an adult, your dh is happy for your children to be brought up RC, you want them to be RC, you attend mass whenever possible, but for family reasons want to baptise your children in the parish you were married and used to attend.

Make a big point of delaying the baptism because it is a celebration that you want everyone to be able to join in and that you have had people commuted to be godparents for a number of years.

And another big point of how important it is to be at this particular church and with this priest, it is 'your family church' and having your children baptised by the same person who married you is a luxury not many people have and you consider yourselves blessed to be in that position.

Go on to say that it is with a heavy heart you are considering having your children baptised in a non RC church (Methodist ministers are often very accommodating, I know a couple of divorced RCs who have married in Methodist churches where the minister has taken the view that marriage in the sight of God is better than not and knowing he will never see the couple again) and then ask if/how this will affect their preparation for first holy communion? Particularly as they will not be attending an RC school.

It's becoming more and more common for people to take their children to a 'home' church for the sacraments.

I worked with a Polish TA, she took her daughter back to Poland for her first communion because logistically it would have been a nightmare to get parents, grandparents, friends neighbours.

I totally agree with sashh

well, you've managed to let four years go by without baptising them despite it being 'important to you to raise them in the faith' so what is another 3 months?

twizzleship Lots of christians don't baptise their children as babies. My daughter was three and half years old when she was baptised and my husband was 43 years old. I agonised about the rights and wrongs of infant baptism. I choose to baptise dd as a pre schooler as I felt it I was following in the footsteps of Hannah presenting Samual to the temple high priest Eli. I don't think that there is a single example of infant baptism in the new testatment. (Expect possibly for the Jailer's family all being baptised.)

The only flimsy arguement for newborn baptism is that in Colossians baptism replaces cirucmision. The reason I think thats a bit flimsy is that a newborn cannot profess any faith.

I think that God understands that sometimes life gets in the way.

If it helps, I don't know that it will, I tend to find meaning in Baptism in terms of the symbolic sense of it. Water Baptism involves washing / immersing. This is symbolic of washing the sins away (as fallibility has been acknowledged) and immersing someone in Christian teaching. Baptism of the Holy Spirit I see as an infilling of a person with the Holy Spirit, who prompts us to do what is right, leading us, once they exercise Faith in what they have learnt through Christian teaching.