Catholic Baptism problems

[smartypants1000]

Basically, we have our daughters' Baptism booked for late May, outside of our Parish (where Godparents live and where we are originally from). For various reasons (serious bereavements for two of the Godparents, the girls are aged 4 and 2 - it has always been the intention to have them Baptised. It seemed pretty straightforward but we've now been told that we need the permission of our Parish Priest. This shouldn't have been a problem, except that he won't give his permission.

We moved into the Parish less than 3 months ago, and he requires that we be registered members of the Parish for 3 months before we can apply for Baptism. Then, he requires us to attend a preparation course here, and won't accept us attending preparation in the Parish where we will be having our dd's Baptised. he also requires baptism certificates for all Godparents - they don't live locally, and probably don't know where their certificates are. But the main problem is the 3 month rule. I have attended Mass with the children every Sunday since we moved here in Feb. But he requires both of us to attend for 3 months before he will allow us to attend the preparation course, and since that only runs at certain times, will not allow us to have the Baptism as planned - it has been a military operation getting a date when everyone can make it, and after so many problems I don't want to delay, as it is very important to me that the girls are Baptised :-(. Dh is Catholic, but he isn't practising. he is happy for the dc to be raised Catholic. I joined the church as an adult (prior to meeting dh) and it is so important to me to raise the children with faith.

I'm feeling very unwelcome in the Church at the moment, very upset about this, feeling that my children are not considered good enough. Can the Parish really deny us permission? Can they really just impose these arbitary rules? When ds was Baptised, it was very friendly, welcoming and straightforward. Is there anything I can do, or do I have to accept that the Baptism will not happen?

No problem annunziata.

annunziata I can see that you take your faith really seriously and how important it is to you and that you find others not doing so really difficult and I do know where you are coming from I really do as it can seem that some people just 'use' the church to gain access to education, excuses for knees up etc.

However I find that I have to remind myself that I will never know what is in the hearts of others and I really don't think it is for me to judge because when I have done so I have got it horrendously wrong.

Oh if you can't attend Mass that is fine, obviously. I think too often it is a case of 'won't' and that really upsets me. Really, our priest is baptising babies every second week! Where do they all go?

There will always be someone who falls short of a deadline or certain date, that's a pity. But it's just unfortunate. I don't see the need to go to the bishop because the children won't be baptised on the date that the OP wants.

She's not a minority of one, actually. Our church has clamped down big style also, due to the "tourists" with nothing more than school admissions on their mind.
Op may not be part of that merry gang; but with different rules in place the priest obviously feels he's got to apply them to everyone equally.

She's not a minority of one. Several of us have noted that there has been an element of (to a certain extent understandable) 'clamping down'

One of the differences between the catholic church and the protestant churches is that the catholic church does have rules. Many people within the church think some of them are a bit silly, I suspect many people don't keep them. But they do exist and they get over-hauled regularly (especially when the hierarchy gets renewed, either in Rome or in a country).

The thing that is probably an obvious red flag to the priest is the extreme lateness of baptising the children. The OP's 'reasons' aren't actually ones that cut it at all, in terms of the sacrament. You are supposed to get it done quick smart, and while other cultures can and do wait longer (although none so far as I'm aware as long as 4 years) the culture in the UK has been get it done ASAP for a very long time. It does look odd, getting it done so late. Anyone who attends mass on a weekly basis and is engaged in their parish would know this and would expect some raised eyebrows. The fact that OP seems to think it's perfectly fine not to have baptised a child until after it is 4 is likely the key red flag.

I do completely agree that 3 full days of preparation is ludicrous though.

Raised eyebrows a someone getting baptised when they are no longer a tiny baby? Really? I'm so glad I didn't notice those raised eyebrows and only heard congratulations when my DC were baptised.

zzzz I know our PP would raise his eyebrows at a child not being baptised until they were 4. Ordinary parishioners wouldn't know or care obviously. It's none of their business. It is the PP's business. In an environment where there is pressure on school places especially, there would be a question about why leaving it so late and why then doing it at 4.

As I said upthread, they aren't prepared to confirm kids who go to mass most or even every week unless they had practically 100% attendance at the additional classes (and these are kids who are, some of them, doing GCSEs soon, with Mocks earlier in the year etc. I know one lad who is an altar server who is not being confirmed because his parents weren't happy about him going on a weekend retreat the weekend before his mocks started. I don't blame them, I would have made the same call - the point is, the rules are being tightened up).

I didn't say I thought it was nice - I said that's how it is right now. People who are in the system (as I am with my DS about to get confirmed) know this.

Also - zzz - one of the 95 theses was that priests shouldn't come between people and God. The whole rejection of church hierarchy was key to the reformation.

I've been to mass in other parishes from my own (when on holiday) where priests haven't given communion to kids who look too young (as in, wee) to have made their first holy communion (happened to my DD the first trip after she had made hers). It's not good, I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it happens. I've also been to churches where the priest has been amazed we haven't wanted signed proof we attended the mass (we have no pressure on primary school places and no catholic secondary school at all, so it wasn't an issue for us). I also know people whose kids were not allowed to be confirmed with their school cohort because they are summer born and the cut off for being 14 is the date of the confirmation ceremony. It nearly happened to DS - he only slipped under the wire because they changed the date. DD2 who is August born will likely have to wait until she is nearly 16 before she is allowed to be confirmed. Luckily she will be doing GCSEs a year early so if they are still doing the draconian attendance at retreats thing it won't be such an issue for her.

To be clear - I don't think this is the best way to do things, I do think it is happening. I'm amazed so many MN catholics appear to live in such easy going parishes, and feel quite miffed that I have never lived or visited one such. Obviously I have an unerring instinct for going to hardline churches!

My parish must count as one of the easy going ones for which I am grateful.

These rules seem to be being applied to the nth degree and excluding people. All altar server not being allowed to confirm because he wouldn't attend a retreat just before his mocks?? Yet faithfully serving despite the ribbing teenage boys get for that?

I agree with zzzzz the church is us and we should speak out against petty rules that will turn people off the church.

The schools issue needs a real re think if it is causing such exclusion and pain.

Indeed, is seems different parishes do things differently. If dd is confirmed along with the rest of her school cohort she will be 10yo, for example.

Lynette Confirmation age does seem to vary gigantically between dioceses. I know some places - like Liverpool - do it quite early. At our church, there are 17 and 16 year olds being confirmed this time because they just missed the cut last time round and it doesn't happen here every year (DD1 actually missed the cut but our PP let her through anyway. And, I believe, was told off for letting her and a couple of others through - hence the tightening up this time).I personally have a huge problem with the compulsory prep classes for everything these days - kids have so much pressure, and parents do too - so much stuff that we did in school as a matter of course when we were young (music, drama, even sport) is now after-hours or weekend activity (inevitably paid for) and for parents and their kids to give up stuff that might have been quite expensive (and there is no prospect of refund, usually) when they attend mass week in week out, does seem very harsh. And then when you factor in school work etc - if you are going on a confirmation retreat from Friday evening - sunday evening when, exactly, are you supposed to get your homework done? :(

I do however broadly agree with the baptism age thing. Leaving it and leaving it so that you can have a big party does seem to run completely contrary to the point of the sacrament. As does holding a baptism not in your own parish. One of the points of it is welcoming the newborn into the community - how can that happen if (a) you aren't newborn and (b) you aren't being baptised in your own community?

I agree with zzzzz all the way through this thread.

And I also abhor those who suddenly become Catholics just so that they can get their children into a decent school (although it is understandable why they feel they have to go to such lengths). Another vote for secular education, in my view.

hercshipwright I think the reason for not being in her own parish is the fact they moved house. I might be wrong, but I think the crux of the matter is:

-OP planned to get kids baptised
-bereavement of a godparent put this off for a time

• OP now books and plans baptism
• OP's house move goes ahead which puts her in a new parish
• OP (having regularly attended Mass in previous parish) asks permission from her parish to continue with baptism as planned
• OP is happy to attend preparation classes but priest refuses as she has not attended in his parish for 3 months, more to the point she didn't sign a form on the first time she went so the 3 months can't start till she does (whether or not anyone else can confirm they have seen her there)

All the arguments in the posts above about why they need people to demonstrate commitment etc are perfectly fine, but in the OP's case it seems unreasonable to refuse to allow her to prepare alongside others.

It depends if the priest is running his own prep classes or not. DH and I had to go to another parish and did one with loads of other couples, I strongly suspect that there was a checklist imposed by higher-ups.

OP doesn't meet the 3 months. She was in her last parish a lot longer than 3 months and didn't have the kids baptised, so to move to this one and complain that they haven't arranged it for her after 8 weeks is a bit churlish. She's waited this long, what's the rush now?

Couldn't see John the Baptist making all this palaver...

It's not that she's rushing now, it was already booked some time ago in the old parish wasn't it? But now she has moved house in the meantime she needs permission.

My DH is a practicing catholic but I am not. My DS was baptised catholic and DH takes him it mass. I found the Catholic Church obstructive in the extreme.

We got married in the Church of England but with a catholic priest there so it satisfied the requirements of a catholic wedding - I was made to get a declaration signed by my parents to say I had never been married before but my DH wasn't - he was catholic, he was to be trusted, I wasn't so I wasn't.

We were told that signing the form it bring your children up as catholic was optional until we refused to sign it and then it became not so optional.

We took DS with us to the perpetration classes and they weren't happy until we pointed out that there were no other options with a breastfed 4 month old.

They wanted the welcome into the church to be done on a different day to the actual baptism. I asked for it all to be done on the same day as my family live 200 miles away. They said no.

They didn't want the godparents baptism certificates (catholic, so could be trusted not to lie...) but they did want a copy of mine...

capsium That's the sort of argument that led to the reformation. And clearly, an awful lot of people then and now agree with it. It's got a lot of merit! :) But it doesn't get much credence in traditional catholic parishes for obvious reasons.

OP has booked her DC to be baptised in their godparent's parish in May (without any of the paperwork or prep done? How does that work? We did that first)
The old parish didn't/ couldn't have agreed to that/ done the paperwork the baptising parish needs.
So the new parish has to do the paperwork and prep, but the priest is saying that they've only been there 8 weeks so he can't/won't.

It's all very confusing.

A letter of freedom for both parties is standard at Catholic weddings, Pottering

Pottering this is partly why my DC are baptized CofE but we attend Mass and they are probably going to continue with the other sacraments in the RC church. Baptism is the only 'transferable' sacrament AFAIK.

The RC church were difficult about us getting married, the CofE weren't, so we did it there.

I have no strong feelings one way or the other tbh.

Each church keeps the ongoing records for the babies they baptise,so if your husband was baptised there they would hold his records pottering I was married in a differ

Oops hit the wrong key.

I was married in a different church to where I was baptised so I had to get the letter of freedom too.

I still think that the some of the church is tying itself in knots over all this - and its so alien to my experience. I think its a shame. The church should be there for all. Yes there might be those who abuse it but I would hate to think that obstructive rules turned away those who wish to receive sacraments or those in need.

I haven't actually asked him to prepare us for baptism immediately - I've actually satisfied preparation requirements in my previous parish, it's the Priest saying I must do his course too in order for the baptism to go ahead.

The reason it can't wait til the Autumn is that it won't then happen with the Godparents we want for our children, because of various personal circumstances, and also because I am expecting another baby which will make the whole thing even more difficult for me. It's also because, as the baptism was planned and booked before we moved, Grandparents and Godparents have arranged their own holidays around it, including a set of Grasndparents who have booked and paid for flights and accommodation from abroad. That might not matter to you, but inconveniencing people so massively and financially does matter to me.

He does require both sets of parents to attend, zzzz - he prefers the Godparents to attend, although doesn't insist on that. But he won't negotiate on both of us attending preparation. I'm going to do as a few posters have suggested and see if the PP who would be baptising the girls can give me any advice.